Zerk's not happy with Guards getting additional AA's

In my guild I have a zerker who is absolutly unhappy with our class getting additional AA lines. Its not to say that their class will also benefit from additional points to spend, but they are truly unhappy that we will benefit from it more than they will. Are they right in assuming this?
This is where i am confused: Since the last expansion, at least in my opinion, Guardian's have been nerfed on several occasions with our class which includes (i.e. hate reduction, Mit etc). What are the Zerks complaining about? Their AOE DPS Aggro control is far superior to ours. Everytime he see's my guard he's reminded that with our new additional AA line comming up, that we will be, further along the "Tank Chain" than Zerks will and has said that if "we" our class - benefits from it more he will Respec to a Guardian Class. I have heard on more than one occasion that if guard's get an additional AA line - then the Zerk BETTER get something COOL by 80!
I anticipate that we will benefit from an additional AA line - But wont practically or almost every class will in some way? And why all this resentment from Zerker's? I suppose we can only speculate what they might say or have an opinon on, but what they are saying does it have a basis to get rid of their zerk's to respec to a guard class?

Simply tell him to not worry about what other classes are getting and to concentrate on how to use what he is getting to improve himself. That or have him change to a Guardian if he thinks we are going to be SOOOO much better then Zerkers.
There is a long standing tradition in EQ2 to hate the Guardians. You will learn to ignore the whimpering at some point as we all have.

the reason most zerks are continually on the defensive about changes is we NEVER get any upgrades, we share most of the same nerfs that guards get but at the same time we lack many skill that guardians have had for a very long time while they try to even out the classes. the fact is that guardians can hold aggro as well if not better than zerkers can as they have more tools do it with where we have 2.5 taunts(our most powerful taunt is broken with our AoE range enhancement AAs, which also happens to be our ONLY semi useful EoF end line AA).
what i mean is:
most of the complaints are basically just rooted from the fact that our suggestions are constantly overlooked by the devs during the changes made(then again whos aren't? but we seem to have no knowledgable advocates for our class giving input to these changes). yes we can do the job and almost equally as well but as time goes on the future looks less promising, as most zerks who have played the game since the start have seen nerf, after nerf, after nerf while not gaining anything to compensate between the 2 classes. what they did was make guardians more like zerkers and kept stealth nerfing the zerkers DPS while giving nothing.
guardians retain their double attacks through the EoF tree where zerkers must collect 7(yes the complete set!) of EoF fabled armor to get the 9% to double attack back. the only comparable spell we have to tower of stone and block is our ability to avoid the death effects of death's door which in most cases is not to our advantage anyways. yes we can still DPS better, but only slightly with the changes yes our defensive abilities are lacking and always have. the only reason we managed was because of the difference in our DPS vs defense abilities which that gap has greatly been altered.
the main reason we are not excited about 20 more AAs in each tree is the straight fact that it would only net us a little more haste, which will be helpful until haste kicks in in a fight, then it is rather useless and would be in dimishing returns in raid fights anyways. it could be dumped into DPS modifiers which also runs the same course as haste modifiers in raid. they could be dumped into AoE damage but after testing i noticed little to no difference in my personal DPS by taking those AA lines. it could be used to add a small amount of mitigation, which would be a complete waste of AAs if you know how little that much mitigation would help. our EoF tree, we could dump AAs into health regen, WOO WOO! it's already capped anyways... we could dump them in to get a 1% boost to our AoE DPS, WOO WOO! 1% is good isn't it? or we could take one of the multiple broken end line abilities such as gut roar that only works on very few epics and only slightly more heroic mobs in the game and requires you to time the spell PERFECTLY to avoid the incoming stun, stifle, whatever you are trying to avoid.
a good question to ask is are guardians forced to use a lower tier defensive spell to avoid taking a HUGE hit to offensive attack skill to be able to keep aggro on them? nope, you have a self skill buff where we lose 91 points of attack skill from offensive to defensive at M1 T7 level and no other methods of fending off some damage aside from that huge loss to aggro aside from using a lower tier spell or stacking the classes to assist in our attack skill losses.
there has also been some rumors that SoE is changing zerks to a chain class tank which will put casual players back into a DPS role, where i sure hope they either make up for it with defensive buffs or with a bump to our DPS up more on par with scouts since that is what chain classes are. i just hope they are just that and only rumors, i don't mind changes but some are just a little too much when your role in the game is completely altered, especially when you lead a raid force.
i don't so much mind the fact that we have to use our head a little more in timing things or in what gear to choose to wear(a VERY noticable lack of health pool between the 2 classes and temp buffs also which lead more to have to optimize everything rather than just throwing on a suit of armor and tanking) and timing our attacks/debuffs/stances but it does make me a little uneasy knowing that while our 2 classes are being brought closer together the zerk is actually falling down the chain.
the fact remains that we were originally mirrored classes where the guardians had heavier armor and more defensive temporary buffs, zerkers were the offensive class where DPS and killing quickly and all around us was what we did and still do best. times changed and we now wear the same armor and DPS is very close together(even though most guards still focus on full defense and lose out on their DPS) yet many of those original differences still exist where the DPS gap is much more narrowed now.
in a nutshell that is why most of us are upset, some may betray where others will remain loyal but maybe not 100% happy with how things are turning up. we are a very un-united class with only a small amount of support for each other, which is mainly why our rants about changes are unheard. this is my take on the changes and it will be drown out once again as it always has, then again i am used to it as i must sound like a broken record by now.
i know it must be difficult to know which direction to turn these days, either return us to mirrored classes or give us the skills we lack as a plain vanilla DPS tank class.

sorry im not going to get into another Zerker/Guardian debate.
Deleted so i dont lose temper and start a flame feast.

Thanks Lyger for your response and comments.
Any Guard who would like to have a rebuttle to Lyger's response?

i didn't mean to start an argument, i only posted what the current changes that have been made and foreseeable ones in the future on the path we have been on since the question was asked.
i don't really envy guardians because i know it is hard to find a spot on any raid unless you have a position already there, otherwise zerkers have a much easier spot fitting in an offtank DPS role.
do i feel the changes have been a little unfair? yep, if they continue in the direction they have been. how many people can honestly say they would prefer a zerk MT over a Guardian MT? majority will pick a guardian and i agree with their choice. however if they continue to nerf zerker DPS and do not equal out their tanking abilties then i don't think any of you can deny our rants are unfounded. do i wish to be equals? nope, i rolled a zerker for the term "berserker" entails, which is to kick the living crap out of mobs, not to be equals as top tier tanks.

Couple of things you might consider,

Guardian = Defense

Berserker = Offense

So taking that a bit farther you guild has two options, Heal the Mob to death (Defense) or Beat the Mob to death (Offense).

Choose an MT that best serves your guild and what you have to work with. Its not really the class thats better, but rather the player.

I bet I can roll a Berserker, lvl him to 70, learn all the tricks to the class, and do just as well with him as a MT as my guardian.

A zerker can spec defensively and be a great tank, I've seen my fair share.

And why do you say agi line doesn't work, 1 you get another spell to use, get it up to 8 and it does good damage, or just keep it at 4 and still do okay ae damage on big encounters, it's not like you couldn't fit it in is it?, the 40% aa AE proc does infact increase your DPS, but only against multi mob encounters, 2 is a slight increase, but against 10 it's a great increase.
(for 2 it's only 40% extra aa dps, for 10 mobs it's actually 360% extra dps)

Even if haste and dps are deminishing after 100% if you can get both to 200% raidbuffed you have 125% more auto attack dps, add this to double attack and ae procs and crits you get some AWSOME dps especially on encounters.

The only thing I'd wish for if I was a zerker was to actually gain the ability to have 3 specs, 1 raiddps, 1 raidtank, 1 group/solo.

DoF introduced class-defining abilities in the game that still stand to this day and always will.
Guardians got: Reinforcement, Sentry Watch and Tower of Stone. All of them are excellent CAs that have very useful applications. Reinforcement is the best snap aggro in the game. Sentry Watch is like a group wide priest death save spell. And Tower of Stone is clutch when it comes to mitigating spike damage, which is always a raid's largest concern.
Berserkers got: Insolent Gibe, Visions of Madness and Open Wounds. Once again all great, although I'd measure VoM as being a lesser CA compared to Sentry Watch. Insolent Gibe on the other hand basically guarantees AoE aggro, and that's in addition to the incredible damage potential Open Wounds combined with Destruction bring to the table.
What Berserkers are concerned that most Guardians will take the AGI line to get Dragoon's Cyclone to cement AoE aggro. I remind everyone that Guardians have always had this option (what I have on my guardian: Thorren), so it's nothing new to me. So both Berserkers & Guardians gain Acceleration Strike or Dragoon's Cyclone in addition to Str and Sta lines. Of course, Berserkers don't need much help in AoE aggro department, so that's where the perceived shaft is coming into play for their class.
I say wait until RoK is out and then make judgements, who knows what new ability Berserkers and Guardians get. Berserkers have always been an extremely powerful class in my opinion, their buffs being on par, 1 to 1 with Guardians. As Dragonlancer said, one will always been offensive in nature, and the other defensive.

Unless something changes, from what I've seen in the beta Guardian dps will be moving more in-step with Berserker dps. Both for single target and AE. Largely because a Guardian will get a huge benefit going 4-4-8 AGI, whereas there is literally nowhere, in either tree, for a zerker to put 20/20 more points effectively. But CAs matter as well; right now Zerkers have a T7 offensive stance while Guards are stuck with a T6. But in RoK, both will have T8. Comparing the new level 80 abilities is a joke too.

Right now the only thing Berserkers have on Guardians is DPS. Guards have better survivability and better aggro control. Perhaps Zerkers have a slight edge in Blue AE aggro control, but crusaders rock warriors on that anyway, and the difference is largely the zerker 100% AE autoattack.

I've never considered betraying a toon before, but if the current RoK additions go forward, myself and many others will be betraying to Guardian. Good luck affording your T8 masters ^_^

typically our optimal spec is 448str/44882sta/443int, this is a DPS/tank spec to pick up the riposte and added power.
now you have to look at your tree to see where we can go from there with 20AAs in KoS, we could take the additional perma haste and parry(which is not a straight % like riposte but is in diminishing returns and will only net you a few actual % of parry) and then take the CA timer reduction AA to pick up some additional DPS. we could also go down agi to pick up a little more AoE DPS, the defensive buff AAs are a joke as well as the mitigation ones if we could reach them, the DPS gains from the additional AoE would be minimal since we are already AoE focused, guards gain much more from this line than we do. or we could go down wisdom for some DPS modifiers which generally do not do a great deal for auto attack DPS anyways.
insolent gibe is our greatest taunt, ever! too bad it doesn't work very well in conjunction with our AoE range enhancement ability in cyclones tree in EoF. if you have ever seen a zerker MT and mobs come from half a mile away then you can guarantee he used gibe, in my opinion the range enhancement needs to be normalized in conjunction with this AA ability to keep it from being a broken skill. without the range enhancement the DPS from open wounds(our temporary AoE frontal attack on limited mobs for a duration) suffers greatly.
in our EoF tree, well, i can't really say much there. honestly i could not spend a single of those 20AAs and say i am missing a thing.
my beef is with our temp buffs and the fact one of ours is semi broken where guardians have much better tools to work with while gaining stamina, attack skills and better temp buffs while gaining DPS to be on track with ours. next time you see a zerk, inspect their health and gear and think about what you are missing when you are in one of those "oh ****!" moments and you have to slam one of your 3 temporary mitigation/def buffs to TRY and compensate for the lack of health, lack of parry ability, lack of absorption ability and lack of end AGI line ability. believe me, you're not missing any fun times at all. but like i said i was perfectly content with how we were until they decided to tweak the game to bring guardians DPS up to ours and begin our push out of any useful position in the game.
the title of the thread is a bit misleading, i don't think any zerker would think they should have more AAs or better than any other class, most just think things need to be worked out a little better than they have been and to maybe have a little time under the microscope instead of being the ignored red-headed step child that we have been for the past 2 years and counting(dramatical phrase, meaning constantly nerfed).

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

I think 2 years is an exaggeration. In KoS Berserker DPS was overpowered. Even Berserkers knew it and were waiting for the nerfbat to come. Thing is, it never did. SoE instead introduced an EoF tree that didn't boost their DPS too much, and brought other classes DPS up instead.
Relative to other classes, Berserkers still do very nicely on zonewides. So the problem is more one of Guardian envy than the actual class itself; which let's face it is generally more raid useful than a Crusader or Brawler.
And in that case, it's still a simple fact that Berserkers have better CAs for DPS on both single and group encounters. It's absolutely incorrect to compare zonewides for a Guardian MT versus a Berserker in a DPS group, because you absolutely need the best buffs and curing possible on the MT for them to hold aggro.
It is still quite simple - for MT you want a Guardian. For any other slot in the raid a Berserker is a better choice. Ask a scout if they prefer a Guardian or Berserker's group buffs. If you betray as OT you're reducing your raids DPS in trade for a slightly bigger comfort zone when you occasionally OT adds.

Whelp, not much to add other than this: The NDA hasn't been removed, careful what ya talk about. And someone said having 10 mobs makes agi line dps go up by 360%....IDK what yer smokin', but that ain't even close to true. The blue aoe can only hit 8 mobs so yes you'd get a nice dps spike from that many mobs, but our auto attack frontal aoe only hits four frontal mobs.

First off, if you don't suck as a player you'll be able to do just dandy on a zerker.

Secondly, if you really want to complain about a tank class and raiding roll a shadowknight.

Not trying to argue or anything, but the simple fact is that there was a line between guard and zerk...

Guards were a defensive tank that relied on taunts and other methods to hold aggro...

The zerk was an offensive tank that relied on dps to hold aggro... that line is now no more... and the guards dps is close to a zerks dps... with the addition of more aa points to spend, that gap will be closed and guards will be able to produce as much dps as a zerk...

Unless zerks get a boost in dps or tanking ability... it is clear that the guard will be the better choice for either MT or OT raid role or group situation...

I am not envious and I'm not going to jump the fence... Just hoping for some balancing...

On a side note: Zerkers WILL NOT EVER NEVER EVER be a chain class... it makes absolutely no sense to even think that.

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

...And therein lies the problem... that should not be the way it is done... You should be able to say for an MT role you want a Guardian, Zerk, SK, Pally or maybe some day even a bruiser or monk (wishful thinking, but maybe one day).

that was my whole point was to emphasize the changes being made to each classes DPS where zerk was the DPS tank class, we are no longer at that focus and now compete with classes with better tools at their disposal.

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

exactly... I was just emphasizing your emphasis...

bottom line something needs to give or we are gonna have a whole lot of guards on our hands...

I have given this quite a bit of thought. I play on Nagafen (a PvP server) and yes, we do raid at endgame, albeit we get around to it a lot later than most because we have the PvP to keep us occupied. Even then, though, it gets to us that we want to play the rest of the game too.
I am the off-tank for the guild, stepping into the role as mt when the situation arises (our guardian isn't online for contesteds or whatnot) and that is my role. I am fine with that. It is the running joke in our guild that "zerkers" cant tank anything, which everyone knows is not true in that every mob in this game has been tanked by a zerker, just people teasing me.
My role as off tank is to pickup adds, usually of the multimob encounter type, blow my wad of dps all over the place, and keep aggro while they get burned or the name dies. That is my job. I am good at it, and I enjoy it. a lot of times the guard just stands there, timing blocks, tower of stone, planting, it's a tedious task for sure, but grabbin adds just seems like so much more fun.
Well. a Berserker is the candidate for this role. It's basically what we were made for. We lack the defensive abilities to help our healers with spike damage and other things, but we are good in a dps group with our zerk buffs and our 122 str, etc.
Now, this is where it gets fuzzy. With 20 more AA points, you can spec the AGI line and get 40% of your autoattack damage to hit the encounter. Now Guardians have increased their ability to hold aoe aggro. This is where things get broken. If you can have a guard be off-tank. Why ON EARTH would you let a berserker? why? no really? dps buffs aren't something that most scouts need at end game, give em a dirge and some gear and they dont need my berserker proc. everyone has plenty of strength.
So .. I am not abandoning my berserker. I am power levelling a guardian. If I can buckler spec aoe dps spec my guardian for maximum dps, and STILL KEEP MY GUARDIAN DEFESIVE abilities. Would that NOT BE BETTER than a Berserker? And then BAM, I can step into main tank role any time I'm needed. /ponder.
That is why Berserkers are pissed.

Simple really, zerker got better group buffs for offtank group. and you don't want 2 fighters of the same type in raid if you can help it.