Zerk's not happy with Guards getting additional AA's

if i were to guess i would say what probably happened is many of the issues brought up here are not being fixed in the expansion and are being brought into light. i will never betray but i will park my character if it continues to go this direction and play another class we may need, since a guardian can more easily do my job and do it better.

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

Then I guess it depends on what you perceive your job to be. If you are MT of your guild and offer nothing else to your group or your raid force, Guardian is the way to go.

If you are an off tank you are contributing personal DPS aswell as good group buffs w/ the ability to tank. Pretty versatile, you have options.

The fact is, if a guardian isnt actively tanking mobs, theres really no point to having one on a raid.

You cannot say the same about the Beserker.

Jvaloth wrote:

So what happens when Guards can push Zerker DPS, as in the possibilities with ROK? Then I guess guards can fill another spot. I think this is what is going to happen, and Skel has pointed out (mind you without breaking any NDA).
I agree with Lyger, I can level up my warlock /shrug

Dasan@Najena wrote:

Ummm, no. Everyone recieves an additional 20 AAs. Even with Dragoon's Cyclone, a Guardian will not outparse Berserker AoE damage on any encounter where Open Wounds/Destruction is used. Not even close. Over the course of a zone-wide, the 40% Cyclone might even out due to encounters where OW/Destruction wasn't used, but that's not really taking into account that you still get a huge haste bonus from OW in addition to your Berserk buff. You can digress about the ease of getting DPS/Haste buffs all you want, but it still helps a ton. And that's not mentioning your Str buff and proc component of your offensive stance & aggro stance. Regardless of how redundant it might be, Berserkers can take AGI if they want and ensure that they always are hitting multiple targets some of the time, and often ALL of the time. When it comes down to it, Berserker damge output is above Guardians. Not by what it used to be, but it's still a fair bit.
If your Guardian, and I would even go so far to say with MT group buffs is out-parsing an equally geared Berserker with comparative combat buffing, than your Berserker sucks.

Tyrion wrote:

If we were still at KoS times of course. But's that's a long time ago. EoF changed the combat system very much in favor of Guardians with their new AAs, that you can hit nothing with auto attack in def stance anymore, dimishing returns on haste/dps and easier to get haste/dps.
And now: Skel was the top Zerker world wide. As MT of a raid guild he killed absolutely everything in EoF with buckler line and pure dps aa spec and offstance and now zerkers will even get an amazing new defensive spell with RoK, Guardians not (as you could read for a few minutes in the Zerker forum) and he betrays to Guardian. He has beta access (was at Fan Faire) and obviously knows something you don't know. What do you think this might be?

Let's assume that guard dps as OT is pretty damn close to a berserker in RoK. I'd rather have the guardian OT as well since they have better survivability tools, especially in OT groups that are less than optimal.
To sum it up, the additional achievement points will not noticeably boost berserker dps. There just isn't anything to spend them on! KOS tree, may go down the INT line for 17perma haste??? EoF tree, most berserkers have probably already maxed their dps potential already.

Bremer wrote:

Ha ha, I went to Fanfaire too, so I know everything he does, and I have beta access too. I've killed everything in the game except Avatars, since Vigilance is a casual raid guild. So I think the better questoin is, do you know everything me and Skel do?

Just for you bud. That's me with my FF Cloak.
This mob mentality that's grown entirely in response to Skel's thoughts on the Berserker forums has avalanched badly. I'm not arguing that the niche that Berserkers once had as the prime AoE tank is beginning to marginalize, but honestly trying to convince anyone that Guardians do as much DPS or more than Berserkers is a joke. Just a flat comparison of offensive buffs and offensive stances shows that alone. The CA post in the Berserker forums is well-thought and rationalized, and I agree with it. But even with slightly weaker CAs, Berserkers have two Stances with Damage procs to a Guardian's 0, a Haste/DPS buff to a Guardian's 0, and a Str buff to a Guardian's Defense buff. It's just as easy to buff skills as it is DPS/Haste. You'll always have a Dirge, EVERYONE tanks in offensive stance these days, so debating the negatives of Defensive Stance is a moot point, and many OT groups rock a Warden now anyways. And don't get me started on how much more a role Auto-attack plays than CAs when it comes do your damage output.
I know for a fact what's happening to Berserkers, and I think many are over-reacting. This whole berserker-mob-with-pitchforks mentality is getting old. I will say a boost to some Berserker EoF tree abilities would be great, and much needed. Balance is always an issue everyone is concerned with, but Berserkers never complained about 40% Frontal Auto-attack when it was originally installed in the game, but only now because some Guardians have enough AAs to get it....oh wait, many of us already do. I empathize that you guys need some tweaks here and there, but this end-of-the-world, one-of-the-top-end-hardcore-Berserkers-betrayed-so-we're-doomed ideology is silly.

We're not happy because, before if you got Agi, you couldnt get sta, now you can get both, end of story

I've figured it out! It's all part of Skel's evil plan! He's betrayed so others will follow. Then, right before the release of RoK, he'll betray back. Why, you say, would Skel do this? Two reasons. First, the more Zerks that go Guard the higher the prices for Guard skills and the cheaper the Zerk skills. He will benefit from the decreased demand for Zerk skills. Second: It's just the kind of sick mindbending that appeals to Zerks in general. He's messing with the Zerk community's collective head. Bad Skel! Bad! And that is why the sky is falling. Majo, 70 Guard of Venekor

PreRoK
4/4/8 str, 4/4/8 sta, 4/1 int
(needed for DPS)
13 points left
What can a berserker do? - Finish Sta line, add 2 more points to int
Guardian - The same
____________________________
Post-RoK
4/4/8 str, 4/4/8 sta, 4/1 int
33 points left
What Can a Berserker do? Finish sta line, add 3/8/8/1 int (Increasing Total DPS by about 4%), 2 points left
What can a Guardian Do? hell.
Add Agi Line! 4/4/8 agi, finish sta line!, (Increasing Overall AOE Dps by 40%) 5 points left.. hell I would get 4/1 wis, mit debuff!

Amen Tyrion.

I keep hearing all this BS about how Guardians are encroaching on Zerker DPS. This is complete and utter bullcrap.

If you haven't played both classes, quite honestly you don't know [I cannot control my vocabulary] you are talking about.

And if you switch from Zerker to Guardian, you are in for a rude awakening. However greener you may think the pastures are on the Guardian side, Zerker remains a far more versatile and potent all around tank.

Skel is a prime example that Zerkers can and have tanked every mob in the game. Add in the fact that they can annhilate Guardians on parses and one could make an argument that Guardians should be the ones complaining.

Zerker can do everything a guardian can but do way more DPS!


...


Zerkers have had it awesome for so long, I'm just amazed to see the Zerker community whine, moan, and complain about their "plight". Its almost comical. Especially when you have 4 other tanks that have waaay more pressing issues that have yet to be addressed.

InsaneChaosMarine wrote:

Huh?

My zerker is spec'd AGI and STA. I have had both for a long time.

End of story.

Jvaloth wrote:

I have lvl 70 of both and im telling you guardians are encroaching on zerkers dps. I play both so i know what im talking about.

And you should look at Kemts post on zerker forums about how were getting the shaft in the RoK expansion and the diffrence in CA's.

And all gear and play ability being equal a zerker wont out damage a guard by alot on a zone wide parse, wich is all that matters. We will do it but not by enough and after RoK it will be even less.

Jvaloth wrote:

so you deliberately chose to throw one of your best abilities into the trash can?
i've specced about every possible way one can as a zerk and the Agility line is pure crap for us, which is basically why this whole thread even exists in the first place...
the devs keep turning a blind eye to us as we were once the DPS kings of our class, which is too bad now that i have finally gotten into my groove that we have been beaten into submission by the constant lack of attention. the defense buff we are getting with RoK will not fix the issues we are having and struggling with accepting. i am having a strong feeling that zerks will once again become a dying breed, as our name begins to lose its luster and we become more and more dulled with each month.
every single one of our EoF abilities is useless or counterproductive in one way or another, in our KoS tree the agility line cuts half our nuts off as it ovverrides one of our best abilities. our only avenue is continuing down the INT line or depreciating our AoE DPS and going with AGI. if they fixed it so there was additional benefits from those AAs wasted in agility then people might be more inclined to take that path, however currently there is none.

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

Or you could stop whining that Guards are gonna spec a tree you don't even need, get a bloodthirsty choker, spec 84802 Str and then start whining that the Guard can't hold aggro off your 100% critting, 100% AE autoattack (with capped haste and AE procs) because their DPS is too low...

As it stands now Guardians have compared to Beserker:

- superior taunts
- superior defensive buffs (+hp, +sta, +def, we get hp regen...)
- superior aggro tool (Reinforcement with AA (+set bonus), wo don't even get one tiny second off insolent recast)
- superior combat art damage (that even can be enhanced with AAs)
- almost equal autoattack damage (due to double attack AA)

1-3 are fine, but 4-5 are definetely not and it certainly won't get better with more AAs. Zerkers as offensive warriors simply must do overall noticable more DPS than a Guardian as defensive warrior and not only in AE fights with all 3 specials up. But without a doubt the game moves in this direction, where Guardians can keep the zonewide DPS of Zerkers, can taunt for more and in the end are always chosen as tank because most people still live in a pre LU13 world.
I don't aks to nerf Guards in any way, but 4 and 5 definetely have to be shifted towards Zerker to make them clearly visible superior in these categories. The best way would be improved EoF AAs, where Zerker got absolut nothing to enhance the class and one end skill is worse than the next. But as it seems now the devs are doing absolutely nothing in this direction...

Bremer wrote:

1. This may be true, but with the zerkers superior DPS, they do not need taunts as much. IMO DPS is aggro king!
2. Zerkers get some other defensive buffs other than the HP regen.

• 68 Mayhem - Increases the physical defense of the berserker's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration. Defense versus crushing attacks is especially improve.
• 69 Wall of Ferocity - Increases the physical mitigation of the berserker in exchange for decreased movement and attack speeds. Also grants a chance to snare nearby opponents whenever the berserker strikes in melee.
• 68 Suppressed Rage - Decreases the berserker's attack rate and combat damage in exchange for increased defense for a short duration.

3. Yes we have Reinforcement. It's one of the only ways a guardian can keep group aggro. I would compare Reinforcement to the zerkers Insolent Gibe.
4. The Zerkers abilities far outweigh the extra damage our CA's do. A zerkers haste and added proc damage more than makes up.
5. So to be almost equal to a zerker a guardian has to be STA spec'd and use a buckler, giving up defense. It's a trade off, offense for defense.
Zerkers more DPS that guardians. Unless there is some game change that is totally drastic, and no the 20 AA are not it, then I fail to see where we will ever surpass the zerkers.

InsaneChaosMarine wrote:

Before: STR 4/4/8/8, AGI 4/4/4, INT 4/4/5
Projected After: STR 4/4/8, AGI 4/4/8/6/2, INT 4/8/8/7/2
So I'll increase from 20% AoE to 40% AoE.
Though I may drop the last couple in INT and keep the added hate from the 4th ability in the STR line.
Moral of the story, don't pretend to know what a Guardian will do with his extra points.

Raahl wrote:

Well if DPS is agro king, them points one and two are fairly good examples of a contradiction. Since DPS is agro king, and the defensive buffs basically drop DPS, then the ability to maintain agro is lost as soon as the defensive buffs are used. Mayhem is the exception, but the reuse timer and low values of the buff make it rather a minor addition. The other two buffs have to be used, but agro management becomes problematic when they are used.
At no point does a Guardian have to sacrifice agro management for defense, as the mechanisms used are quite different.

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

apparently you never read a single thing in this thread.