Wizard vs Warlock Analysis: Compiled Spell Statistics/DPS calculations Side by Side

Just wanted to point out that the majority of wizards DO in fact think warlocks are getting nerfed. Just because someone is vocal does not mean they represent the majority.

Funny you did not include me or some other wizzies in that list I wonder why? Oh yeah, because then that would prove that not ALL wizards or even the majority of them feel that warlocks are not getting nerfed.

Take a look at mine and many other wizard's posts here that not only admit warlocks are getting nerfed, but also calling on SoE to give you guys another dmg spell.

We are ALL linked together, but it seems that now we are seeing the bad side of warlocks as well. The side that blames wizards for your nerf. WE didn't nerf you and in fact, the majority of us are in support of you.

Apparantly Beghard seems to think he's a comedian. Here's a tip from a friendly Warlock - don't give up the day job.

Conequis, I just ran down the names which posted on this thread before me to illustrate to the guy how wizard posters are easy to tell apart from warlock posters. I'm sorry to have made you feel left out, but seeing as you didn't post until later...

I think something here's been misunderstood and is being continuously deliberately misunderstood. I read the OP; following that, I read 4 wizards posting how everything is fine. That struck me as odd, so I made a post making fun of the fact. A bunch of folks took offense to that... too bad for them, I won't lose sleep over it

It's obvious SOE is the one to blame for this mess. As always, some wizard players will come over to this forum to defend the nerf, and some will come here and post against the nerf, beating their chests in solidarity. I'm sure the latter has happened in other threads, and if it happened here I wouldn't have posted the sarcastic comment. It hasn't though, and I have. So? The world hasn't ended.

Step back guys, relax, will you? SOE's nerfing our class, it's boosting yours. 10 months down the line the roles will get reversed again. And at the end of the day, this will remain a computer game which nobody will have any reason getting bent out of shape or hopped up full of righteous indignation. If you're upset over the post about a game, maybe (just maybe) you are taking the whole thing too seriously?

Well his post was absured, i mean honestly. Our rolles are not changing that much. If you are in 2nd place for raid DPS why would u be worried abput grp DPS? The idea that wizards and warlocks have to be the same is idiotic and illogical. If one is truly **** then that one thing, but being #2 on raids just because they dont want to tank is pretty har to ignor. I dont see why they both have to do the same DD. If that were the case there would be no point in having 2 soc clssess. I know that it would be frustrating not to do good dmg in a grp or solo but its not as if your going to be cripled.

No class will be the same at its roll in all situations.
Message Edited by Beghard on 08-28-2005 03:03 PM

If you fell that is not yours fight then simple not post about. Sourcers are most damaging class and there shouild be equality. In solo as well in RAIDs. There is no quality at all so please stop posting senseless sentences and post somthing meanable.

PS. I got yours childfoto - ill knok it on my woodoopuppe

Well for a start because raid dynamics are fundamentally different from xp-group dynamics, particularly in relation to the size of groups of mobs you're likely to be fighting.

No one is looking for an exact spell for spell equality between the classes, that would be plain silly, what we're looking for is that overall, both classes have different, but largely equal benefits. So, overall, a Wizards advantage in single target dps should be balanced by a largely equivalent Warlock advantage in AE dps for example. One of the main problems here is that equivalent spell lines are currently vastly different where they should be largely the same. For example - Protoflame for Wizards is 2 sec cast, 1 min duration and 45 sec recast, does ae damage and taunts. Netheros, the Warlock equivalent is 3 second cast, 20 second duration, 45 second recast, has no ae and no taunt and requires a Nil Crystal. Now the two spells serve exactly the same funciotn in both spell lines, but one is clearly overwhelmingly superior to the other. It's THAT sort of structural disparity between the classes that has people rightly worried.

From my perspective, your roll will change because you're spell lineup is changing. Less CC (especially stuns and unbreakable roots), less single target DD, more AOE DD, more DOTS (and pet DOTS) and less debuffs. Maybe DPS over an entire raid instance is all that matters to you but how the damage is dealt matters to me. Everyone is intitled to there opinion and many of us have a poor opinion of these changes.

For all those folks that say the FoH screenies are proof that we are equal in raiding, I say-

Okay. Hang on.

What are those screenies really showing, anyways?

I see a set of parses where the warlock is doing top overall damage and DPS for that encounter. I also see a wizard (I think it’s the wiz) that is doing CONSIDERABLY less overall damage, 75% less in one case, 50% in others.

So what does any of this have to do with the price of tea in China? What spells were cast, how many times, what was the power pool and INT of each before and after? What type and number of mobs? Fully fabled tank with Master Taunts and CA’s? The data is completely incomplete. I could give you the same parses the other way around if I cast 2 or 3 spells over the course of an encounter, showing a vastly superior Wizard. Steering parses is not difficult. So what was the purpose here? How did you determine from these screenies that Wizzies and Warlocks do about the same DPS?

Not to mention the composition of this group contains [I surmise] gobs of fabled gear, Master spells, and some of the highest skilled players to complement. This data is completely out of touch with the everyday vanilla player ingame. I would caution those vanilla players on how much value you place on these results. They are NOT typical, nor are they complete.

I do appreciate your sharing results and info, Ranvier. I believe you ARE trying to put our minds at ease with respect to the changes. I am truly excited for the much needed boost our Wizzie brethren finally got. It was waaaay too long in coming. I am equally disturbed by the corresponding nerfs that the Warlocks have sustained. I think the OP’s numbers are spot on and clearly show the inbalance. This is the result of TWO things: A wiz increase AND a warlock decrease.

Here is the solution SOE: Bring warlocks back up to par. Leave Wizzies be. You did a great job and they much deserved the increase. Leapfrogging these classes has got to stop. Get it right. You still have time. Go nerf a Bruiser. These two classes are sick of the nerf pendulum.
Message Edited by GLScooby on 08-28-2005 04:54 PM

I think what the OP missed was the application of these spells. as we know right Now Ice Comet is the be all end all DD right now right? So therefore by looking at those numbers the wizards should be top DPS on raids right? No, it is not because the NUMBERS do not take the resistant factors in.

We do not know what SoE plans are for the DD that they have given wizards. Who cares if the numbers say that <insert spell here> should cause <insert amount of damage. if we do not know the resist factors of the mobs with fire and ice.

I feel that the DPS on raids parses at least eliminates the wizards are better than warlocks by 20% or more theory, because it shows that it is not true. Both are quite comparable on raids. I invite, instead of medicore griping and complaining, a warlock and wizard team that show what the parses.

As for single group, it was already pointed out, you can have all the DPS potential that you want, but if you can't control the aggro you are F-U-BARED. But I would welcome any wiz/wlk team to actual parse, instead of griping about the changes, so we can see what is really going on.

First, I want to apoligize for posting in the first place. To see so many warlocks complaining about wizards getting a needed boost ticked me off. You can look at every other post I have made, I usually try to keep an even keel. Second, i usually don't post or read the warlock forum, but seeing all the warlocks on the wizard one, i thought I would come check it out. Then I saw Ranviers' excellent post with the fabled and masters, to which we had no such posts, and found a wealth of information.

Which, I would like to ask him where he got that robe...

And as far as my classes go, I played a 50 warlock and a 50 wizard in a raiding guild, but I am changing mains atm to either my Berzerker or Troubador. Seeing the troubador changes currently, it will probably be Berzerker. I try to be impartial about the changes, and i am somewhat, seeing that both classes are getting a good boost, I just hate to see people complain about a broken class getting somewhat of a fix, when you can see they the afore mentioned class is still doing as much or more dmg.

Very good points Scooby
Another point... do we know what the specific mob resistance tables were like... were they arcane friendly? noxious? both?
While I can definitely say these parses settled my apprehension some, I can't say they relieved all my concerns. At least I'm more open minded to the upcoming changes... as silly as many of them are for Warlocks.

5-6k nuke a warlock does not have but wiz got a devastation they can constanly keep up. Warlock best nuke at 50 reduced 40% in damage to 1k-1.5k.

Adept 1
Icy Wind
Targets : 5
Type: AOE
Damage 433-529 for 4 tics
Cast time: 4 seconds
Duration: 16 tics
Recast time: 16 tics

Adept 3
Devastation
Targets: 5
Type : AOE
Damage: 722-822 for 4 tics
Cast time: 4 seconds
Duration: 6 seconds
Recast time: 45 seconds

Warlocks get 1 cast of devastation in time a wizard can cast 2 (almost 3) Icy Winds. Without casting anything else lets look at numbers shall we?

Devastation X1 cast top damage = 822 x5 effective tics for 4110 x5 targets =20,550 damage.
Icy Wind x2 cast top damage = 529 x 5 effective tics for 2645 x5 targets =13,225 damage X2 casts =26,450 damage.

So in the end where is the warlocks Ice Comet? Oh and now Surging Tempest app 1 up to 3.4k nuke. Warlocks get two pet spells um I didn't think I signed up for summoner.

This is not balanced at all, bottom line is warlocks need 2 seperated timer nukes at 3-4k each or we are gonna be near obsolete as Wizards get highest dd's and decent Aoe's on par with Warlocks.
Message Edited by Weekster on 08-29-2005 02:45 AM

Hahaha you mean they've INCREASED the damage on Surging Tempest ? Oh, obviously the poor Wizards don't have enough single target dps. /sarcasm off

Where did you see this change ? I wonder was it due to differing INT ?
Message Edited by Magiocracy on 08-29-2005 10:45 AM

I looked at app 1 on one of the wizard screenshots in one of the other forums.

Ugh another mathematician !

Yeah yeah ... Comparing one spell to another fun fun Go hurt your brain some more. You didn't convince me.

You made the following assumptions my dear (but yeah you don't tell them hu)
- wizard and warlocks only have one spell (lol what an assumption !!)
- they never get agro and they keep casting it forver (another nice assumption go for it man you are uber !)
- mobs have no resists (yep look the spells are maxed out !!!)
- warlock and wizard have endless power (yep they don't need to regen)
- you never get stunned or whatever by mob, you never die, never get interrupted. lol
- you always hit the mob and never miss !

Nice stats man, they seem very practical with all those assumptions. Basicly you have no clue how to handle stats. Get a parser and tell me about your dps then and only then I will consider it as a proof of unbalance. For now you only have raw numbers that are meaningless.

Vexia 50 warlock @ guk
Sybryn 50 zerker @ guk

PS : keep hurting your head guys I'll take a nice parser to do the job for me.

...... where is your nil absolution??? If you want to compare icy wind to devastation, then what does a wizard have to compare to nil absolution??? NOTHING! Warlocks have 4 lines of AE while wizards have only 3. While a wizard casts 3 icy wind, a warlock can cast 4 nil absolution. 4 nil absolution do about the same damage as 3 icy wind, plus devastation - a warlock will do much more AE damage than a wizard. Not to mention warlcoks can upgrade nil absolution to master2, but wizards dont have a choice to upgrade icy wind!

Ugh another mathematician !

Yeah yeah ... Comparing one spell to another fun fun Go hurt your brain some more. You didn't convince me.

You made the following assumptions my dear (but yeah you don't tell them hu)
- wizard and warlocks only have one spell (lol what an assumption !!)
I said only casting these 2 spells
- they never get agro and they keep casting it forver (another nice assumption go for it man you are uber !)
A wizard can get off 2 Icy Winds since recast is 16 seconds- mobs have no resists (yep look the spells are maxed out !!!)
There are mobs in dof 100% immune to poison this resist argument is null after dof goes live.
- warlock and wizard have endless power (yep they don't need to regen)
I'd hope a wizard could cast 2 spells, hell 4-6 even in a row otherwise they have a real issue.
- you never get stunned or whatever by mob, you never die, never get interrupted. lol
You obviously don't raid much as you never lead off with either of these spells untill your tank has aggro.- you always hit the mob and never miss !
I am not swing a weapon it's a spell

Nice stats man, they seem very practical with all those assumptions. Basicly you have no clue how to handle stats. Get a parser and tell me about your dps then and only then I will consider it as a proof of unbalance. For now you only have raw numbers that are meaningless.

If both spells are doing maximum as I posted, um why would I need a parser?
Message Edited by Weekster on 08-29-2005 03:01 AM

Ehhh..Wizards have this little spell called Ice Comet to compare to Nil Absolution, oh..and now you have Surging Tempest as well. Yeah, you've been really hard done by.

Ya, AOE's are great on single target aren't they, espcially on raids when leaders say no aoe's of anykind cause we are mezzing.
Costs me as a warlock same amount of mana to cast the 4 nil distortions to equal 1 ice comet with 8 more seconds of cast time involved. But 1 Nil absolution costs 343 mana so lets look at the efficency of casting those 4 nil absolutions, 1372 mana for 4 casts like I'd do that for single targets over the costs of 524 mana for 4 nil distortions. Your also forgetting aoe's are very situational in a game not very aoe friendly.

Try dodging the wizards Ice Comet in the Arena in DoF, it's 1 shot 1 kill pretty much where my long casting/duration dots and aoes take time to beat ya down.
Message Edited by Weekster on 08-29-2005 03:32 AM

1. I never think icy wind should be compared to devastation. Icy wind has about the same DPS as nil abosolution (icy wind has higher total damage but takes 16 sec to do full damage, while nil absolution does instant-damage and has a shorter recast timer.) These two are very comparable.
2. I do agree that warlcoks need to have a comparable spell to surging tempest. But it has nothing to do to my reply. I replied your previous post because I disagreed on "5-6k nuke a warlock does not have but wiz got a devastation they can constanly keep up."