Wizard vs Warlock Analysis: Compiled Spell Statistics/DPS calculations Side by Side

Here is the summary analysis of Wizard vs. Warlock Balance. Please note that balance determinations are based upon DPS considerations alone. Wizard and Warlock are supposed to be equal DPS. They are not.

DD Line One: Balanced AOE Line One: Warlock Inferior DPS Pets: Anecdotal evidence DOTS: I don't have enough info.
DD Line Two: Balanced AOE Line Two: Warlock Inferior DPS indicates that Protoflame is
DD Line Three: Warlock Inferior DPS AOE Line Three: Balanced much stronger than Netheros.

Class Defining Spells:
Wizards get two copies of Ice Comet.
Warlocks get Devastation and a DOT for 700. This DOT can turn into pets that randomly attack people.

Here are the numbers.

Lvl Wizard Warlock
(204 INT/AD3) (259 INT/AD3)
37 Cast DPS: 382 398
Time DPS: 95 79 DD LINE ONE
(271 INT/AP1) (259 INT/AP1) Shared Timers. Analysis: Balanced
51 Cast DPS: 356 346
Time DPS: 89 79
--------------------------------------------------------------
Wizard Warlock
(204 INT/AD3) (259 INT/AD3)
38 Cast DPS: 472 485 DD LINE TWO
Time DPS: 118 97 Shared Timers. Analysis: Balanced
(271 INT/AP1) (259 INT/AP1)
52 Cast DPS: 441 418
Time DPS: 118 84
--------------------------------------------------------------

43.......................Upgrades are not close enough
to fairly evaluate.
Wizard Warlock DD LINE THREE
(271 INT/AP1) (259 INT/AP1) Shared Timers. Analysis: The Warlock Line is VASTLY INFERIOR. Please Fix.
57 Cast DPS: 279 113
Time DPS: 112 56
--------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's take a look at AOE lines. Wizards get three AOE lines. Warlocks get three AOE lines. Let's compare.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Wizard Warlock
(204 INT/ AD1) (259 INT/AD3) AOE LINE ONE
48 Cast DPS: 2910 2120 Notice that the Wizard has a LOWER INT and LOWER upgrade but HIGHER DPS. Please fix.
Time DPS: 580 530
--------------------------------------------------------------
Wizard Warlock
(204 INT/ AD1) (259 INT/ MASTER 1) AOE LINE TWO
50 Cast DPS: 2425 1405 Notice that the Wizard has a LOWER INT and LOWER upgrade but EQIVALENT DPS. Please fix.
Time DPS: 350 355
----------------------------------------------------------------
Wizard Warlock
(271 INT/ AP1) (259 INT/ AP1) AOE LINE THREE
58 Cast DPS: 2425 2200 Looks balanced to me.
Time DPS: 405 440
---------------------------------------------------------------




Wizard Warlock
Lvl Type Cast Recast Dur Min Max CastDPS TimeDPS Qual INT Lvl Type Cast Recast Dur Min Max CastDPS TimerDPS Qual INT
60 DOT .5 90 30 1364 1674 3038 17 AD1 271 60 ---------------- WARLOCKS GET NO EQUIVALENT --------------------
59 DOT 1 8 12 574 574 574 64 AP1 271 59 DOT 1 8 18 651 651 651 72 AP1 259
58 DD 2 30 2 1075 1791 717 45 AD1 271 58 DD 2 30 4 606 1011 404 25 AP1 259
58 DD 2 30 2 1075 1791 717 45 AD1 271 58 ---------------- WARLOCKS GET NO EQUIVALENT --------------------
58 AOE 2 10 0 824 1115 485 81 AD1 271 58 AOE 2 8 3 748 1012 440 88 AP1 259
57 DD 2 3 0 502 613 279 112 AP1 271 57 DD 2 2 0 221 229 113 56 AP1 259
52 DOT 2 6 8 750 1015 441 110 AP1 271 52 DOT 2 8 10 628 1043 418 84 AP1 259
51 DD 3 9 0 855 1282 356 89 AP1 271 51 DD 3 12 0 830 1245 346 69 AP1 259
50 DD 4 60 12 2184 3277 683 43 AP1 271 50 DOT FOR 635-780 OR GET PETS THAT ATTACK RANDOMLY
50 DD 4 45 0 3878 4740 1077 88 AD3 204 50 AOE 4 45 3 3028 3700 841 69 AD3 259
50 AOE 3 9 6 760 928 281 70 AD1 204 50 AOE 3 9 2 775 948 281 72 M1 259
48 AOE 4 16 16 2095 2560 582 116 AD1 204 48 AOE 4 12 0 1526 1865 424 106 AD3 259
45 DOT 1 8 12 539 539 539 39 AP4 204 45 DOT 1 8 18 889 889 889 99 M1 259
44 DD 2 30 20 668 1114 446 28 AP4 204 44 DD 2 30 4 421 702 281 18 AP1 259
43 DD 2 3 0 495 605 275 110 AD1 204 43 DD 2 4 0 324 439 191 64 AP1 259
42 AOE 2 10 0 518 700 305 51 AD1 204 42 AOE 2 8 6 720 972 423 85 AD1 259
38 DOT 2 6 8 801 1086 472 118 AD3 204 38 DOT 2 8 10 727 1211 485 97 AD3 259
37 DD 3 9 0 916 1374 382 95 AD3 204 37 DD 3 12 0 953 1430 398 79 AD3 259
That is the raw data. Wizards get three DD Lines. Warlocks get three DD lines. These DD lines are granted at the same levels.


SOE said they are going to be balancing classes based upon DPS considerations. It seems pretty clear to me that the designers are trying to differentiate the classes by giving Warlocks better AOE timers and Wizards better DD timers. However, it is clear that Warlock is vastly inferior DPS as it stands.



DEVS: Here is how you fix this so you don't lose a lot of Warlock customers.
a. Fix the the Soul Flay/Soul Blister Line. It is vastly inferior to the Wizard line.
b. Fix the Nil Absolution Line. It is vastly inferior DPS to the Wizard line.
c. Fix the Dark Nebula line. It is vastly inferior DPS to the Wizard Wind line.
d. Wizards essentially have two copies of their class defining spell, Ice Comet. Warlocks have Devastation and a crappy DOT.
a. Give Warlocks a copy of Surging Tempest.
Wizards Warlocks
Big DD Big DD
Big DD Big AOE
I don't like this solution. The devastation vs. Ice Comet arguments will persist.
b. Give Warlocks a copy of Ice Comet, take away surging tempest and replace it with Devastation.
Wizards Warlocks
Big DD Big DD
Big AOE Big AOE
I like this solution the best. I have no problems with Wizards getting Devastation, as long as Warlocks get a big honking nuke. Seems balanced to me.
c. Give Warlocks a second copy of Devastation on a separate timer to compensate for Wizards getting a second copy of Ice comet.
Wizards Warlocks
Big DD Big AOE
Big DD Big AOE
I hate this solution. All of the arguments about Ice Comet vs. Devastation will be magnified ten fold. And to be honest, I don't think I'd even be able to cast that second Devastation because of aggro issues.
To be honest, I think the vast majority of Warlocks play their toon because of big numbers flying over the mobs' heads. We did not choose to play a pet class. If we wanted to play a WOW warlock guys- and I'm pretty sure that's why you're doing this Netheros crap- we would be playing WOW. Haven't you guys checked the server population on Warlocks? Haven't you seen it progressively going up in the last few months? Why would you suddenly make wizards better at AOEs and DDs, in the process turning us into a PET class with inferior pets, by all reports? I don't want to have better DPS than a wizard. I want equal DPS. Please.

Alezara
Warlock of the 50th Order
-=Pandemonium/Unrest=-



Message Edited by Amistead on 08-30-2005 10:21 PM

thnx for the effort in putting this together...

It's much easier to see the disparities when side-by-side

Guys, seriously, do you ever read anyone elses posts? Did you read Ranvier's? Did you look at his screenshots? Did you see the parses? Seriously, he was way ahead of every parse, and I am more inclined to believe the posts of FOH, being that they are testing the lvl 60 with masters. Come on, look around before you complain. I know everyone feels strongly about their class, and they want the best for them, but its still a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good class, and they dps seems to of went up also. And, from what else the FOH guys have posted, warlocks still use less mana. I don't see what could be the problem.



Basically wizards and warlocks are equal dps. Ennis wasn't accustomed to all the new Wizard spells and we were off to raiding right after getting the master spells. Both wizards and warlocks are capable of SO MUCH damage now that we have to be careful. By just using like 10 spells we can dish out a LOT of damage. One no longer has to spam the hotkey windows to do uber dps. The old EQ1 thing of aggro management is back...so a good wizard/warlock will be one who does the most dps w/o getting aggro because getting aggro is easier now than it ever was and mobs hit so hard that healers won't really be able to save you. I am out of time for the moment.

Message Edited by Violatortn on 08-28-2005 08:23 AM

Everything I've heard from beta, is that wizard / warlock dps is very high. Depending on who is playing the toon, the dps is virtually equal. From reading the same SS from the FoH warlock I'm inclined to agree and am actually happy to see his results. Wizards / warlocks do soo much damage now at the drop of a hat, that they actually have to be concerned with stealling aggro. Just because a wizard has a few more dots / nukes doesn't mean that they are going to be able to cast them.

And to any warlock who thinks that there is unbalancing... just go back to Devastation vs. Ice comet. Ice comet is resisted about 20% of the time accross the board on xp mobs, dont get me started on raid mobs. Ice comet adept 3 lands for 3500ish. Devastation adept 3 lands for waves of 500 x 5 mobs? x 5 waves? soo.. 12.5k damage? Same recast timer...
sooooo 12.5k vs. 3.5k?

So, i guess for me to even start feeling sorry for a warlock about their "unsuperior" dps in comparison to wizards, they'd have to nerf devastation down to about 150 / tick to 5 target max for 5 waves. Until such times.. shaddup.

Nice theory ... but yeah I rather believe FoH on test servers then this post. Sorry mate but trying to do the math just doesn't work with this game. There is alot of feeling and other circumstances when you are raiding that will change the dps you calculate.

One big thing is, in raid I never EVER use all my spells ;-) So comparing them all is just not gonna make a difference. Since I will never use the crappy spells anyway in raid. Or very offen when I need to lay off agro

But the post is nice to give us an idea what are our good and bad spells. Nice work ;-)

Vexia 50 warlock@guk
Sybryn 50 zerker@guk

The FoH parses show us quite clearly the raid situation, which is great. They don't really shed any light on the non-raid dps. Specifically, raids are most likely to have encounters of 5 mobs or more where Warlock AoE can be used to maximum efficiency. whereas the other 95% of the game it's very unlikely to find encounters with 5 or more mobs. I don't want to sound too negative, since the parses ARE good news, but let's not assume that that covers the full situation.

Given these parses I'm beginning to wonder is SOE's notion of dps balance is based on raid dps only and not solo/xp-group dps.

Did Ranvier show single group dps parsers?
Did Ranvier show solo dps parsers?

If you raid all time - good news, your dps is close to wizard dps, but EQ2 is not all about raiding... It is why ppl complaing about nil crystals, utills spells (eg this "not usesfull" evac), and dps in diffrent, not optimal 5+ targets situations. Now looks, that wizards dont need to worry about crystals, have better (at last usesfull - check wizard forum) pets, utils (IMO, of course), 2 times more single target damage and are only 20-30% behind warlock in aoe.

Im sure, if someone, eg Ranvier will show single target (not raid) parsers in which warlocks will be no more then 20-30% behind wizards, a lot ppl will stop complaing.

P.S. English is not my primary language, sorry if I maked errors...

I was going to comment more, but laziness struck so made it a bit smaller

The difference between warlocks and wizards after the cc's seems to be a lot smaller than it is now. I still think warlocks should get a equivalent to surging tempest. Though looking at the parses from warlocks who've actually tested this you dont seem to miss it that much in a real raid situation (i know, not everyone raids...).

I still wonder why some warlocks complain about all those dots they get, when wizards seem to get the same ammount. And fast ticking dots arent much different from dd's anyway.

First question : how many spells do you use in groups/raids/solo situations ?
Second question: do the other spells that you don't use affect your total dps ?
Third question: don't you think that only a few spells define what our dps is, Like devastation, nil distortion.

Those are more the questions you have to ask yourself. Right now I use Devastation, ND, BSS, NB, DN and DP alot in raids. The DOT's sometimes when I feel I will take agro soon, to lower my agro a bit. Netheros, only when we need to mana drain a mob with the Inq proc to have more procs.

My point is, we get alot of spells, but once we will start to play we won't use them all. We will naturaly skp the crappy once to only use the better once. The wizards will do the same. So I only look at the top 5-8 spells we got, compared to the top 5 spells of wizards. If they are balanced I don't care much about the other spells. The pet spells whatever. Those are a lack of imagination from SoE, but do they realy matter for our dps in the end ? I think the dps stats from FoH showed it defenately doesn't matter in raid situations.

Oh and to anwser your question about AE vs Single Target dps, Yeah both were parsed. Warlocks are far ahead on AE, and very close on DD ...

Vexia lvl 50 warlock@guk
Sybryn lvl 50 zerker@guk

Parses are from a raid I believe.....here is the post.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=14442

Hmm.. from the looks of parses.. looks like wizards should be complaining about dps, specifically AOE.

Isn't it funny how most of the replies to a thread on the warlock forum come from wizards? Which makes them irrelevant.

We've established that on raids, warlocks aren't too far behind wizards. What about in groups? I'm sure that's the situation most people over 17 really care about as they have no time to spare to raid much.

Anyone on test mind posting some group damage parses?

I'm sorry do you know everyone here Lamprey_02? So, you also must know every character that everyone plays right? It would be impossible for a person who has a wizard main character to also have an alt that is a warlock.
Some wizards post here because we get information on our boards that might be useful information to warlocks. There are posts on our forums that are very relevant to warlocks and crazy as it seems there are posts on the warlock forums that are relevant to wizards. I know, I know seems outragous!!!! /sarcasm off. People are free to post anywhere they feel information is relevant. I did not see any posts that were irrelevant.
I did agree with one thing you said and that was that I would also like to see some small group and solo parses.

Oh, by the way, my main Character is a level 50 wizard but I also have a warlock alt. Do I have your permission to post here now that you have that information? Probably not since you seem to hate wizards and my main is a wizard. I just dont understand why people have to keep making this a wizard vs warlock thing.

Can we all please direct our anger at the people responsible for this blasted mess, namely SOE. The fact that someones main might be a Wizard does not invalidtae their views. They are not irrelevant if they happen to be right.

It's easy to see who plays a wizard.

"Warlocks are fine, they're not broken at all, if anything wizards still need a boost on AE" - wizard poster. He may have a warlock alt, but his main's a wizard
"Warlocks have been nerfed, it sucks to see the class completely redefined into something I never wanted and wouldn't have chosen" - warlock poster

violatorn - wizard
orgingrinder - wizard
pharacyde - warlock
magiocracy - warlock
thorvik - warlock
tanith_ - wizard
stepha72 - wizard

I don't need to know every poster out there. Posts that claim warlocks are just fine and dandy are people who don't play one, haven't played one from 1 to 50 and aren't seeing their class nerfed. They're wizards who just got a huge boost, feel threatened SOE will think it's overpowered and come here to try to defend it. Posts that say warlocks are screwed both in comparison to what they are on live and in comparison to wizards and are trying to ring the bell on it before it's too late and the nerf goes live and people with warlock mains.

As for my permission? You don't need my permission, post away. Any relevance a wizard main will have with regard to warlock issues, well... that's up for debate. Since this is a warlock forum, it'll probably be a debate by wizards trolling here defending the nerf

Thank you Magiocracy. You are so right!!!

Lamprey_02 I noticed you posted on the Wizard forums. Isn't it sort of hypocritical of you? I read one of your posts and found it very relevant. Funny a relevant post from a warlock on a wizard forum. Maybe that could mean that some posts from wizards on warlock forums are relevant.
Thank you for your permission to post. If you check all my previous posts here on warlock forums I have never once asked for warlocks to be nerfed. Most wizards read posts here and post here because we feel your pain. We have been living it. If you check my past posts I am all about hoping warlocks get the fixes they need before it DoF goes live. This should not and should never have been a warlock vs wizard thing. It should have and should be a wizard/warlock vs SOE. Neither group wants to be nerfed and we should be working together to get both groups fixed. Not being little children screaming but his ice cream cone is bigger than mine.
I apologize to everone else on this forum. I don't usually get so angry but this was just a silly statement that Lamprey_02 made and I had to respond.


Message Edited by stepha72 on 08-28-2005 10:35 AM

Yes, I read them all. I don't want all the DOTs we're getting, especially 51-60. DPS over a long fight is only one measure of performance, there's no way a warlock is going to be able to solo as well as a wizard or perform as well in short fights. Also, AE's will get you killed much more frequently than single target DD spells, DOTs are useless when soloing and those [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] DOT pets will do nothing but generate extra lag in raids. SOE is turning the warlock into a specialist, i.e. one dimensional class which is not something I want. The fact of the matter is that if these spells go live you're stuck with them until the next expansion (at least), of course it may be too late now.

Message Edited by MilkToast on 08-28-2005 11:17 AM

Message Edited by Beghard on 08-28-2005 12:48 PM

yeah that was a great post
/major sarcasm

Of course I posted on the wizard forum, why wouldn't I? I didn't mention anything about balance, not my place to post opinions about wizards in their forum as I don't play one. I simply asked for a group parse next to the raid one. Whoever made that post is so far not providing one, though...

Any warlocks on test able to parse group damage over a span of an hour or so, and willing to post the results? Thanks in advance.