Why the need to lower our Unbridled Fury, AOE Abilties, and Proc rate,.

Sasa, your totally cluless, thats all i have to say.
Paladin agro control is far superiour then any other tank class in the game, if you want to see some real agro control, stick a Bruiser and a Paladin in the same group, you have no idea how much agro that Paladin will generate.
Tell me this Sasa, seeing as we need to be hit to proc our encounter only AoE taunt, what use is avoidance, really? Why would we risk getting missed when we need to get hit to proc the taunt and to top it off its only a 20% chance it will proc and the proc is less then our Tier 3 taunt.........so is avoidance a good idea when our taunt effect is so low to beging with plus we have such a low chance to proc it compaired to a Guardian who has a 50% chance to proc his?
HP regen of like somewhere between 80 - 100 per tick ( depending on quaility, and the one that effects the group is like 60 odd hp regen, then we have one self one ) on a raid is meaningless, not even worth mentioning especually when you have mobs casting AoE's for 7k+ now in DoF. HP regen even in groups 50+ is worthless, unless your fighting green con mobs.............:smileyindifferent:
Paladins / Guardians hands down beat Zerkers in a Tanking role, everyone who raids or understands the classes know this, the point is that Paladin are far over powered when it comes to agro generation and the compensation in DPS doesnt weigh out sorry to say.
Here is a interesting one for you Sasa, put amends on a tank class, any will do now what happens when your trying to peel off agro when the Paladin has his amends on you and you hit Rescue, opps 40% of it goes directly to the Paladin not to mention how much has already gone to him from your mountain of DPS......................:smileyindifferent:

better one, just dont try to peel agro off of him O.O. alls i can say is, a paladin puts amends on me when im trying to tank, im canceling that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Agro controll takes cooperation from the group for anyone. remove uncooperative paladins from your equasion and your good to go. I was grouped with a paladin before LU16 update started, and he didnt take agro from me once, since hes one of those cooperative paladins im talking about. can they take agro from you, yeah. should they when they know they aint spost to, no.

Btw, im a SK and i dont really care what kind of agro control paladin has. I know myself if things are done right, i have no problem holding agro either. Paladin has HIS conditions for holding agro, and Berzerker has his OWN way. Get to know both ways, because they arent the same as pre LU13. example: before Lu13, getting hit was always a bad thing for sk. now getting hit = damage = more hate = me taunting once and helping my group do some damage. and i like getting hit sometimes its bad for my enemy. Oh and dont get me wrong, i think all these skills should proc wether you get hit or not, so you could be avoidant and still have the benefiet.

Oh, that pre LU16 patch group i was talking about was Shadowknight(me), Paladin, Swashbuckler, Ranger, Troub, and Templar. no hate loss on my part thanks to the swashies hate transfer and the fact that i can acually get hit and increase agression.
Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on 11-09-2005 09:41 AM
Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on 11-09-2005 09:47 AM

Thats all fine and dandy vs one single mob Sasa, but what about group mobs? What about Group encounters where a Paladin tank is most likely to be used and the encounter requires a tankl to peel adds off the Paladin which are linked to the main mob which the paladin is tanking, i would LOVE to see a tank take agro off him before he is dead.............but the Paladin needs the skills up to maintain the main mobs agro or he will lose it plain and simple making it almost impossible to peel the adds off him.
I watched the same thing happen on God King, we used a Paladin to tank, Berserker to off tank adds away from God King, Berserker hits AoE taunt plus Rampage POOF mobs go directly for Paladin, and even if he didnt hit rampage, the mobs would of eventually gone to the paladin simply because the amount of DPS a Berserker can do over a Paladin just like you Cursaders keep holding us for ransom for which is our "God" like DPS.........
Its not about cooperation, its about cooperation going out the window and players just unleashing a wrath of fury on mobs because Paladins can hold agro alot better then all tanks out there and no one has to basically hold back, its about this skill making encounters harder then they acually have to be simply because of the amount of hate the Paladin can gain, and there is no real way to control it except to toggle the ability on and off. Even still, group encounters ( in a raid sense ) to peel adds off a Paladin and try to seperate them so that the entire raid isnt eating PB AoE's and all sorts of other craziness that SoE is coming up with in raids to try and spice it up is near impossible.

If only you played a lvl 50+ Berserker and tried to hold agro on a raid.............its no where near as easy as a Paladin i can assure you that.
If all these skills proced when we get hit, we would be a Paladin with amends on a Berserker using Rampage + Open Wounds and all our AoE utility we have got.

Well you need to re-work your strat or learn how redemption work.

If the paladin is MT and you plan to split agro. the last thing you want to do is to put amends on the OT... its pretty obvious.
And as long the adds still alive the paladin is forbiden to use sigil.

The target under Amends should assist the MT all the time not the OT/MA

*grins and sighs*

Oh well, for me anyway, there is always alchemy.

whats funny is that Pallys have always had redemption...always we've ad a mana sieve..and now it becomes an issue?
Give me a break...the reason why amends is better is because now players get more aggro. A Paladin would NEVER, EVER cast amends on the MA, so thats crass. Any Paladin worth his salt, who MT's, knows that when you have a MA you cast Amends on the player who will get the least amount of aggro so the MA can do his job.
IF we lose the amends line our aggro will be worse than Berserkers..but thats your point right? You guys are so used to being the king of aggro that it sucks to have competition now, right? OMG Palys can tank AND hold aggro, the game is over, right?
It was ok when you guys were aggro kings and no one could touch you..but now the your aggro is "broken." Funny, your taunts are still better than ours, and so is you damage, which also causes aggro,
Give us your DPS and your taunts, and I'll be the first to ask for our redemption line to be toned down, deal? So you guys want to do MORE damage Paladins and have BETTER aggro...and tank the same...yeah, sounds peachy.

Not as black and white as you paint it, right?

Paladins can heal? LoH?

Its very easy to pick out 2 of many statistics to argue a point with.

What all classes need is what SoE envisions, not bickering between players.

SoE needs to provide specific information on what their goals for each class, aka:

Each Class::

DPS
Mitigation/Avoidance - vs overall tanking ability
Utility
weighted factors (skills specific to class)
etc.

Each class should get 100 pts and divide them up to show how each class is balanced in a given area(aka strengths and weaknesses). After that its up to the player to READ and decide which role he wants to play in EQ2.

Then you just need SoE to follow their plan.

Once again Uzhiel puts a foot in his mouth talking about berserker taunts are more powerful then paladin... Lets do a comparison ( tier 6 agro skills )

Paladin AoE taunt is threat + debuff [ 637- 778 threat increase with a 800 debuff to divine resistance ]
Berserker AoE taunt is threat ONLY [ 637 - 778 threat increase ] Both taunts are at Master 1
WINNER IN AOE TAUNTS IS ---------------> PALADIN

Paladin's Clarion Cry ( single target taunt ) is 587-717 with a 117-143 threat DoT every 3 sec for 9 sec ( adept 1)
Berserker Single target taunt is 911-1109 at adept 3
WINNER IN SINGLE TARGET TAUNT IS --------------> Stalemate , can be argued on both ends but sheer initial threat a Berserker taunt is more powerful..

Paladin 's Righteous Dash..... 107-179 DD , 931 threat 4 sec stun,knockdown, vision blurr ( both CA's are at adept 3 )
Berserker DD atk with threat ( both skills mentioned are at adept 3 ) is 550 threat ( 87-261 dd atk ) *sidenote we have a shield bash atk as well but no threat on it*
WINNER DD ATK+TAUNT IS ------------> PALADIN

Paladin Spell Amends ( adept 3 it is a 41% agro sieve on target that is casted on by paladin )
Berserker comparable ability NONE

Lvl 52 agro ability ( Sigil of Heroism )
Paladin group agro sieve adept 3 is 32% agro sieve upon group for 30 sec recast time 3 min ? ( not to sure on recast )
Berserker Insolent Gibe PBae Taunt adept 3 941-1141 intial threat PBae ( 15 m range ) after for 30 sec has a 50% to proc a 347 threat taunt to area of effect if caster is struck....
From my analysis the Paladin 52 ability is alot more usefull for one major reason... with it up you can have a heavy dps group that your tanking go balls to the walls for 30 sec and its ok because you are gaining agro from it....
Berserker PBae is very situational...... needs to have very few adds in a large radius around zerker ( try using it with 3-4 large group encounters in the area and berserker will go splat quick)
SO IMO winner for more powerful lvl 52 threat ability is PALADIN


So Uzhiel what is this your saying again about zerkers having more powerful taunts the paladins? Would you like me to get started on Paladin Utlity as well ?


Message Edited by Styker on 11-10-2005 12:40 AM
Message Edited by Styker on 11-10-2005 12:42 AM
Message Edited by Styker on 11-10-2005 12:45 AM

Styker, if Palys have always had these skills, why is it all of a sudden an issue now? How many times have we said that the debuff does nothing? I 've never seen any proff that it even works.

Your taunts are more powerful than ours...you just dont have as many. Why? Because your DPS allows you to keep aggro just fine. How do you think Bruisers and Monks keep aggro? Since when did Berserkers ever have a problem keeping or stealing aggro.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=18553#M18553
Thats what happens when we dont have amends..How uber are those taunts now?

Guess what..Guards have more taunts than both of our lines, and they STILL lost aggro to Berserkers..What does that show? That your DPS works just as well as our aggro skills. If you're not the MT for your guild, thats your leaders decision. In my guild we have lvl 60 monks, Guards, Sk's, Paladins, and Berserkers..and guess who's the MT?

The Guard.

If Paladin aggro was so good then how come those skills, that we've had since pre DoF, are so UBER now?
The Paladin was still the third best choice to MT raids? why? because Guards and Berserkers had better aggro.
The only thing DOF did was give Paladins an advantage in aggro because we lost some of our DPS.

Berserkers cannot have better DPS, same or better aggro, and same tanking skills as Paladins. If thats what your asking for then your asking for Berserkers to be the next UBER plate tank.

Utility is a different argument. Palys heal, Berserkers kill. If thats not the case then argue for it.

Calling for nerfs on other classes is crass.

Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 11-10-2005 05:15 AM

well i personally hardly ever use the offensive stance anyway (i prefer to tank with the defense one on and i can still hold aggro pretty well despite the dps reduction from it) but i still don't like the idea of having our offensive stance nerfed like this. the point being i can hardly stand to use it as it is because of the huge defense debuff on it so this nerf just makes it even less desireable for me to ever bother with.

Uzhiel, your debufs do generate hate toward the mob you are attacking. SoE has already recognized this as an issue with scouts and their debuff skills causing too much hate as they lowered that in this last update.
- Many Scout attacks that debuff more than one attribute now generate less hate.
So the more debuffs you have in your attacks the more hate you generate.

I know..but pallys only have ONE debuff..and thats on our taunt. We lost all our other debuffs.
Look, I agree that Berserkers could use more utility..and I also agree that if your aggro does need a lift, then by all means you guys should fight it.
I'm sure that you guys have bugged spells, or spells that dont work as intended. Paladins did too, and we fought it. We fought by continuously posting concrete data, parses, and screenhosts.
We didnt call for nerfs to other classes. It took us 11 months to get our stuff looked at. I remember reading posts back in feb about how poor healers thought of Palys when they tanked. Many guilds wouldnt even let their Palys tanks. We were rez bots.
Pointing fingers at other tanks and saying, "if were nerfed, then nerf them," is not the smartest way to do it. The only thing that accomplishes is even more fingerpointing and class wars. We dont need that right now. There's still issues like mitigation and avoidance for plate tanks that still need to be addressed, and they need to be addressed by all plate tanks working together.
Im all for Berserkers getting their stuff fixed..but not at the expense of Paladins, who just recently became a viable raid tank.

i HATE being part of these conversations Uz, but you made an ASSANINE statement.
"Utility is a different argument. Palys heal, Berserkers kill. If thats not the case then argue for it."
If thats your arguement then our DPS is our utility. So give us better taunts to better hold agro etc.
I personally think our taunts are fine, i have less a problem with our taunts than i do other things. Our lack of utility is astounding. I dont know what Guardians do, but SKs can evac and do some kinda heal thing ... Pally's heal and rez, Monks heal, no idea about bruisers, but our utility is uh.....uh.......nothing? A HP Regen?? Everyone always throws out "Well in one minute you can regen ____ HPs" ... yeah but if your relying on a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] HP regen to stay alive, you're done. You can Regen like what 100 something per tick..............when most t6 mobs can do a whole lot more than that, a whole lot faster.
I'm not crying for a nerf to ANY Class.
I'm saying give us some god damned utility role. Our utility was our Haste and HP buffs...we had those taken away...now its just a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] HP regen. Our Str Buff is nice, but thats the best we can bring to the table???
I LOVE Tanking, and I LOVE when i can 'OT.' It's partial myth and partial truth when people prefer other tanks to Zerkers. I don't get too upset when people want someone else to do the tanking, because then theres less responsibility on me, i can just spam my DPS stuff and feel like i contributed in that way ... but now when we do less DPS, and cant bring the 1000+ Hps and the Haste we used to bring to the table, It's harder to even find a group willing to take you.
The whole arguement that our DPS is higher so our taunts are lower, becomes moot when you look at how our utility SUCKS now compared to other classes.
YES We were overpowered before, Now we're underpowered. I'm just trying to deal with it, i just hate when people say that "Your DPS is better, so our taunts and utility should be much better than yours." Our DPS isn't THAT Much better anymore.
And anyone who is gunna say 'reroll' or learn to play the class, kiss my you know what, I know how to play, I tank god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fantastic when given then chance, if you think people don't 'discriminate' you are playing on a server that apparently i should be on.

Actually Uz that was just you that was used as a rez bot for our raids well cuz what good are paladins and we felt sorry for you so had to give you something to do in the raids

-Arnus

"Utility is a different argument. Palys heal, Berserkers kill. If thats not the case then argue for it."

Umm..I did say Berserkers utility was DPS. You must have missed this statement. You must also have missed the part where I said if thats not the case, then you should argue for it. :smileywink:

Scroll up a bit, you'll see it.

Arnus is right by the way...I was my guilds rez [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for pretty much my entire raiding career..sometimes I was DPS and a couple of times I was even one of the healers. Once, in Spirits of the Lost, the Guard got 2 shotted and I stepped in and tanked him.

Often I heard the sad, "but we already have 2 palys in the raid" statement, which was my cue to move on to the next raid mob. :smileysad: I was a water boy..I still am.. :smileytongue:

Cry nerf for SK, because i dont want evac at all.. id rather have my self invis from the shadowknights of old .

what i say to that is priests shoulda been the only ones with a fast recast in-combat res . made me as a sk feel really worthless, and i acually was heh. all i had was Dispoiling mist wich often got me or others agro for using, but it made others do more damage. even got told not to use it sometimes, i could just call it quits at times like those. two paladins was good, one shadowknight was questionable .

AHEM i said If your Saying DPS Is our Utility then dont [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if we want more agro from taunts or more DPS because you have better utility than us.

You can't say our taunts aren't as good because our DPS is better ... but then have far better Utility than us as well. Thats three categories...Offense, Defense and Utility.

If your Defense (Taunting would be considered that to me) Is better, and your Utility is FAR Better, then shouldn't our Offense be like INSANELY better? I think it should be even higher to compensate for our lack of utility.

In my opinion berserkers have way better taunts if you do not count the agro-siphons. And you say that our AE-taunt has a debuff for increased agro. Well, guess what, you have debuffs aswell, and more than 1. Paladins only have this debuff. Our only AE-taunt only works in the same encounter also, we have no taunts that work PBAE.

Kfizzle, Its your class, not mine. I have enough to worry about when it comes to mine. I dont particularly mind your DPS, and your aggro.
You should read before you shoot from the hip. My issue is not with your class fixes, or lack thereof.
My issue is with Styker calling for Paladin nerfs. How you people manage your class is up to you. If you scroll up, this is where Paladins became involved. Up to that point, there had been no Paladin posting, its when Styker started throwing out the nerf comments that thigs became heated.
Yes, your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] utility is your DPS. Nowhere did I state it was ok for your DPS to be nerfed. I dont know where you got that, but I got a feeling you skimmed through my posts and misunderstood WHY I started posting in the first place.
Offense-Beserker
Defense-Paladin
Utility-Palys heal, Berserkers kill.
Our heals act as defense and your DPS acts as offense. Both our class utility is tied into what our classes do. If your Utility doesnt match ours then argue the point. Styker is not arguing the point. Hes calling for Paly nerfs.
Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 11-10-2005 11:49 AM