Why the need to lower our Unbridled Fury, AOE Abilties, and Proc rate,.

I'm not calling for a Pally nerf in the least, I'm not doing anything but disputing your fact that the two are comparable. While I agree thats how our class apparently is, in my opinion unless we had higher DPS it makes no sence. We aren't as well equiped to deal as Pallys, I don't think Pallys should be nerfed at all however, but rather zerkers AOE DPS brought UP. Why? Because I think thats a nice little niche we can fit into that maybe other tanks don't already have.

Monks/Bruisers have superior single target DPS and superior utility(by far)...but its also hard for me to compare how the defense works since i still dont like the 'avoidance' over mitigation (but apparently people seem to prefer the other way.)

I was 'shooting from the hip' after reading what you wrote because despite strykers over zealous approach about how Zerkers should be the number 1 tank, You tried to dispute the fact that Paladins are (right now at least) the superior choice for group play, tanking and soloing. While I LOVE my zerker and I think I play him [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well, I would love to be able to heal myself. The horsie is ok but I also wouldn't mind a spell like Amends, i wouldnt even have to worry about agro because i'd slap it on the biggest DPS in my group and just chill. As it is, I am a mana draining ***** just spamming taunts while rooted in offending defense, and trying to throw some DPS out there because if i don't I WILL Lose agro.

I don't personally want to see much change, either just a little buff in our AOE DPS, or good god a 'utility' spell/skill that maybe either other tanks dont have or something that i dont know serves a purpose. If you want to just give me back my HP and Haste buffs thats fine, i wouldnt mind. If not, maybe give me some kind of Evac, Speed Buff or god knows i wouldnt mind either a POWER Regen or a POWER Buff. My Mana/Power drops at a astronomical rate when tanking if i'm pulling at any sort of decent speed, even with T6 drink. Cant wait to see how 'Vision of Madness' works in combat...THAT Seems like a good CA.

Nothing personal dude but claiming that Zerkers are 'as good' as Paladins isn't quite true, at least not in the current incarnations of things.

Does that mean Zerkers are 'broke'? Not at all. I just think CU13 dropped us alot and the last couple dropped us a bit more, which is frustrating to me. We went from being way over powered to being middle of the road at best (I still think Mit is easier for healers than Avoidance because you can 'time' things better), and the thought of us being 'hurt' more if nothing else 'scares us.'

I guarentee if you give Zerkers something they could 'bring to the table' that maybe other tanks didnt have, we would have something more to be proud of, something more to say "look we can do this, they can't."

Thats a civilized, intelligent response and I do agree that if your DPS isnt working to maintain aggro as well as our skills, then it should be fixed.

That was more my point ... and as for our taunts being buffed or our DPS being buffed...to be honest I really wouldn't care if it stayed the same IF we had some kinda Mana regen buff, or alot less mana to use our stuff, because in ONE decent fight i can go from 100% mana to 0 in just about a minute.

Come to think of it, THAT Sounds more like a 'berserker' to me than most of our stuff ... someone who is SO angry ... SO filled with hate and or battle lust that they keep going when most people wouldnt be able to lift their arm to swing an axe/sword/whatever ... give us something to let us keep going when others would 'drop from exhaustion.' To be honest, Keep everything else the same, just give me some kinda Mana regen buff and i'm good, that gives us something to bring to the table if its group, and if its self, well at least it will help me tank because god knows i HAVE to keep the taunts coming because if i run out of power and stop, we could be in some real trouble.

guys, guys..peace.

I think we're all in agreement here..just different ways.

If Berserkers are having aggro problems, then they need better taunts, or more DPS.

Palys have one debuff, Berserkers have more debuffs.

DPS to maintain aggro works better than taunts, if the DPS output is working correctly. You do 3 things at once: damage, aggro, and save power......whereas taunts just aggro's and costs power.

Berserkers need a boost to their utility, independent of their DPS. Maybe grp damage buffs, since Palys have a grp heal. Something along the lines of a grp berzerk buff, or a grp HP regen.



Poochymama likes chicken, we can all agree on that. :smileytongue:



Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 11-10-2005 09:25 PM

Ill totally agree with that, when played correctly with the right skills at Adept III / Master I, it is possible to keep good agro, but its not easy to maintain it because your basically on the edge of losing it due to relying on medium DPS plus low taunts to mainaint it for you.
For me i like the way i use my skills to hold agro, i use my DPS to my fullest potential ( minus the Fury line because the Defense hit is just too much to be worth it, especially when tanking zones like Poets Palace vs the lvl 60+ mobs and besides, i like to play a power effcient character so healers have more power to heal with ) while using my medium level taunts also, its good fun knowing that you are on the edge of losing agro, its just not so fun for the person on the receiving end if you do lose it.

We accually already have a Group Berserk buff and a Group HP regen buff.
Group Berserk buff got nerfed in LU#16 to half of what it was before LU#16, and the Group HP regen at Adept III is 55 hp per tick, now im not sure about you, but how many mobs do you fight that this 55 hp regen a tick acually even help you? How many times do you in a group even need 55 HP regen a tick with a decent tank who can keep agro or get adds attention fast enough to not have someone die from a add before he notices there is a add there?
The answer is, the Group HP regen is worthless to say the least, mobs damage output on anyone but a Tank class is too strong and too powerful anyway, so saying you do lose agro or a powerful add does add for some unforseen reason due to bad postioning of the group, not enough DPS to clear fast enough and getting caught in back pops etc etc, it doesnt help one little bit.
The Group Berserk buff is still a decent buff, but the group only has a 10% chance to proc it on a succesful melee attack where before LU#16 it was a 20% chance, now one can look at how much more effective Dual Weilding has become, and seeing there is basically hardly any DPS classes out there that use a 2 hand wep to DPS, then one can understand why they nerfed this and thats totally understandable and i agree with it.
My suggestion is this, seeing as the main problem here is due to Taunts being resisted compaired to Amends not being resisted because its acually transfering any agro the person who has the buff on directly to the Paladin himself therefore making it alot easier for the Paladin to control and maintain his agro because of less resists, make some other classes taunts a tad stronger and maybe lower the chance to resist on taunts.
SoE has stated many times that the Warrior line ( Berserkers / Guardians ) are good at locking down agro on a group of mobs and controling their agro, so id like to suggest that maybe increase the amount of Threat on the entire Provoking Defense line which includes Provoking Defense, Defending Defense, Taunting Defense so that we can accually generate a good solid amount of agro like the rest of the Tank classes can. Seeing as our Defense line is only a 20% chance to proc on taking damage because it has damage tied into it, it really does not make this as effective as a Guardians Assault line which has no damage tied into it but has a 50% chance to proc when taking damage. Another argument can be generated by the tanks who build themselves around Avoidance / Mitigation and can be said that our Defense line accually even becomes alot more worse for wear when we start avoiding most of our incoming damage in the form of Parry, Block, Dodge or Riposte making that 20% to proc even harder again. Top that off with the amount of damage that the skill accually does, does not weight up against a Guardians 50% chance to proc a pure and stronger group encounter taunt.
Thanks for reading to those who did.

If this is true then your thread with 51-60 abilities is seriously outdated

Because all the things I said can be found easily on the pictures in it.

OK for one our group berserker proc buff was nerfed in 16 ( they reduced the rate it procs ) along with our single target berserk proc buff....

Two Debuffs generate alot of hate ( which makes me wonder why SoE changed Doom Judegment from a PEae DD + 2% dps debuff to a AE dd with a magic and noxious debuff to it ( hmm another agro tool )

I have seen it personally how good agro sieve abilities work... If berserkers are gonna get their dps reduced ( we have good dps while tanking when using our OFFENSE STANCE ) our defense stance kills our dps therefore weaker agro generation.. Paladins dont suffer from that issue ...

Idealy warriors were suppose to have better group agro ( which isnt the case currently ) , I cant say Shadow Knights are unbalance because they dont have agro sieve abilities like Paladins do....

Brawlers types arent overpowered tanking as well because for one they have crap group agro management, Two they are not very good raid tanks ...

Guardians have great defense but are actually worse off then zerkers are agro wise....

I can totally understand why Uzhiel is freaked out about me calling out Paladin agro ability ( i would be also if i was a pally ) But for pallys to say that we have more agro then they do now is a flat out LIE...

Not only do you have better agro then we do, You have massive utility on raids ( lets see plow tanks, battle rez, beneficial buffs esp for casters since the agro sieve is also a good stop gap for agro when you put it on a warlock, wizard, pet class etc, gives them more leeway to dps .... ) You also have a Mitigation transfer buff that works as intended now ...

AM i missiing something or is all that i describe just a lie ? You tell me

PS .. tell me where in the berserker skill set do i have TWO SETS OF GROUP DEBUFFS AT ?

Message Edited by Styker on 11-11-2005 02:39 AM

Styker, I never said you have grp debuffs. I said you have more debuffs than us, and its true, you do.

53 - Unyeilding Battering: Attack which reduces target offence
56 - Amputate: High damage slashing DoT, and decreases attack speed of target
59.6 - Ruthless Strike: Damage + interrupt + debuff Focus

As for mitigation buff:

Paladin--Pleade of Armament--Adept1 (51.3): 80 power, Increase Mitigation of target vs physical 319, Decrease MItigation of caster vs physical 531
Berserker--54.4 - Chaos: Group mitigation buff
We both have one, is ours better? dunno, but look at our downside. Battle rez, well, lets see, Necros, every healer type, and Dirges have a battle rez. Paladins have always had a battle rez...and yes, it was nerfed. I have to be standing right on top of you, which in raid is pretty useless.
Grp buffs? lets see

Paladin: Crusade: Master1 (51.3): Increase WIS and STR of group by 41 (no upgrade)
Berserker: 51 - Berserk Cry: Group STR buff--somewhere around 80+ stre I believe
52.6 - War Call: Group berserk proc

I understand that you are upset about some of the stuff happening to your class, but calling nerfs on Paladins is not the way to go about fixing it. The only thing your doing is turning one class against another..because I guarantee you if Amends we're to be nerfed you have every paladin out there calling for nerfs on Berserker DPS. No one wants this.

Argue for more utility or more DPS, dont argue for us to be nerfed. Thats just uncool.

I swear, half the posts on this board is "don't nerf anyone" posts. I understand the psychological need to keep what you have and only be happy if changes give you more, but really, people need to get over it.

Saying "don't nerf anything" is also uncool. If the devs just gave more UPS and Utility whenever they tweaked classes, we'll need a massive downgrade revamp or upgrade on mobs in a few months.

That's all i'm asking for ... more UPS.
:smileyhappy:

LOL =D

Oh no! They are downgrading our Underpants per Second? :smileyvery-happy:

I agree if talking about healing damage done while being beat on by a mob, regen is worthless. Healers have a tendancy to keep the MT topped off if possible which makes the regen (group and self) pointless in most situations. However, there are a few times that the group regen does come in handy. Most of the time it involves everybody using the manastone or necro hearts though :smileyvery-happy:

I too think that was a sensless nerf. what was the big deal in it?