You know all I see if people [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and whining about hopw Necros tend to end up doing tier 1 damage... but I have a single question for you that will tell you exactly why we should be tier 1. If we are not meant to be tier 1, why did soe feel the need to give us two tier 1 classess as our dps pets? As for the damage that the necros do them selves, we have 4 direct spells. At level 40: Lifetap: 400 Blast: 40 Coil: 60 Bats: 45 Cloud: 400 AOE The rest of our damage comes from our pets and dumbfires which can be killed with a single AOE 90% of the time. Oh did I mention that if we come across a disease immune mob we are down to our pets auto attacking only (since they only do disease damage with their CA) and our rats. No wait we still got Word of Force and Swarm of Bats to use! HOORAY! Tell me all you Sorcs out there, how much damage can you do in your 4 main nukes? Because I can bet it is more than 945... Wait at level 40 you guys can do wht 450 with your secondary nuke (the plasma strike line)?
I'm truly sorry so many necro's feel cheated by being nerfed. But in truth necro's here are just mages complete with tanking pet, summon mod rods, and breathing stones. Necros in eq1 had so much utility and dps becuase they needed it for thier role in the game. Here though in this game, the amount of dps they do over say other classes is unjustified. I played a necro in eq1 for about 5 years and one over here for a year, and i can honestly say they need either pets tuned down or dmg spells. Basically they should not be t1 dps, with utilty of pet, roots, snares, fears, rezz, heals ..........
You bring up some decent points I'd like to address. 1 - As you stated the majority of your DPS comes from pets, ours comes from nukes so you can't compare the amount of damage your nukes do to ours. Thats like me complaining that my Protoferno doesn't do as much DPS as your pets 2 - If you happen across a disease immune mob is just as bad as if we come across a cold one. Our big nukes are cold. This point is moot 3 - SOE has said for a long time that you are supposed to be a T2 DPS class, the fact you have a scout pet and a mage pet doesn't change that. You guys are essentially a caster, healer, fighter and scout rolled into one class. You shouldn't be the best at anything there is a specific class for. You are intended to be the Jack of all Trades. you should not be able to tank better than a tank, heal better than a healer, scout(lol) better than a scout or zap things better than a pure caster. Message Edited by sparql on 05-12-2006 05:12 PM
Exactly we are a jack of all trades and can't do anyone thing better than the other classes. Our tank is a ptifull excuse of the word and is merely a non mitigated hunk of flesh to keep us from getting hit. Our Assassin pet is out shadowed by a reall assassin of the same level any day. Our Warlock pet can't hold a flame to a real one. We only get 1 non pet heal and it costs us our health. At level 42 I can only heal others for I think 350 once a minutes or something like that... my level 28 Templar can sneeze for more than that. Our nukes might as well not be there if compared next to those of a Wizard or Warlock... you guys do MUCH more damage per nuke than us at the cost of longer cast times. And if you come across an ice immune mob you lose what... 3-4 of your like 10 damage spells? That leaves you with at least half of your spells due to your fire half. If we come across a disease immune mob, We can only use 2 skills AND ONLY IF WE TOOK THE TIME TO DO SP/BLOODLINE Now if SOE wanted us to be tier 2, they would not have given us an assassin (you know tier 1 scout) pet and a warlock pet (also tier 1)... they would have given us a brigand and coercer (I would love to bring multiple stuns to a group setting) As for our snare... it rarely if EVER gets to the actual snare because the 20 seconds of damage it is suppose to do before snaring breaks just like and as often as (if not more) than a root. We get 1 stun that is like every stun that is not used by a chanter gonna be nerfed into oblivion with LU24. So please tell me how in the world do we do everything better than every other class. Just because a fly could play a necro (aka it isn't exactly what one could call a hard class to play) doesn't mean all the slackers out there who aren't playing their classes to their 100% potential need to whine about us.
Some of you just sound clueless. The benefit of playing a Jack of all trades class is the flexibility in the class. Necros are not intended to come close to being the best at any one thing, but we have the option of being decent to good in pretty much everything. THAT ALONE is a benefit that other classes lack. And for the benefit which non of you seem to be able to wrap your little brains around, we pay for it in not being true masters of any particular field. -- for the above guy, If our pets were 80% as good as the class they were based on, and our nuking was 80% as good as a wizard, then we'd as a class be 160% as good as any other class... add in the fact that we also have 2nd class heals and crowd control to boot, and we're twice as effective overall compared to any other single class. You can't balance Jack of all trade classes by looking at their individual pieces alone, you HAVE to concider the fact that cumulatively their skills all add up. Its sad that even after loosing 33% damage during raids from the scout pet hit, we're STILL going to be near or at the top of the damage heap.
I didn't say you could do everything better than any other class. I said you can do the basic functions of many classes aka Jack-of-all-Trades, you can do a little of everything, but are not masters of anything. Having an assassin pet doesn't mean your pet should be able to do assassin damage, that is foolish. If that were the case, everyone should just play summoners instead of a set class. By being able to do many things, you sacrifice specialty. The opposite of my chosen path. I decided to play a class that specializes in one area, and as a result suffer in others. As for immunities, everyone knows certain immunities hurt other classes far worse than other. Yes I can use fire for a cold resist mob, but you can also have your pets melee instead of casting nukes. For the most part, there is always something you can do in an encounter. Listen, I don't like to see any class get what they think is "nerfed", but fact is, it happens. The devs see something that is clearly out of line, and choose to adjust it. They are adjusting our roots because they feel they are too powerful, and I agree to an extent.
I keep running across the recast on heals being downplayed lately. It's on an 8 second recast and heals for 374 even at app4, and it's a level 33 skill. Five more levels and you'll be healing for 650 every 8 seconds. It costs health but it costs 0 power to cast, and the health you can life tap back. Yeah templars can heal better than that at lower levels, but it's a pointless comparison. A level 28 necro can out dps a level 42 templar, what does that prove?
I'm sorry I'm a 70 nec and definatly am not looking forward to getting nerfed but I find the argumeant on the reason we should be higher dmg is due to our pets being t1 classes a little baseless. I mean come on what else where they gonna give us pally,bard and ench pet?
On paper we have many utility options. The reality is somewhat different. Our tank pet has very low mitagation. No one can seriously argue that it is over powered and retain any credibility in this community. It's procs are too random to be trusted and its mitagation is a joke. hp w/o mit is the dev's way to limit pet tanking to weak mobs as we can sustain the healing, while any real mob just rips pet a new one. Root / fear / darkness are apparently very useful skills to have, and in isolation they are. But this fails to look at their use in a practical setting. Any DoT or pet attack has the chance to break these spells every time the DoT ticks. The cumulative effect of having 3 DoT's ticking on a mob makes root / fear / darkness nearly pointless unless you cancel the DoT's first. The only way to safely damage a mob with any hope of maintaining these spells is with our life tap nuke... give or take 1k every 10 sec or so. Hardly uber. Fear is a seemingly useful option, and can be. But too often the mob will path below the ground or through a wall where we can't target it. All we can do then is FD or start running because 15 seconds later it will pop up beneith us and its all over. FD is useful. But those of us that raid regularly will know that it is useless against AoE attacks. Fair enough. perhaps, for area burst spells, but vs tank mob combat arts? Guess they roundhouse swing at ankle height... Our dps pets arn't bad in a group situation. Combined with our DoT's and the life tap nukes, we do well enough. This, rightly, can be reviewed as long as it is kept situational. Soloing however, was always s'posed to be a necro strength. Sadly, the only way to do this with a pet is against weak mobs, or to play wizzy root/nuke style which is counter to our s'posed role as soloers. Argue all you will on this issue, but in lore necros are not the most social class, and in practise it is generally agreed that the strength of a necro was their ability to solo. That crown has well and truly been passed to the wizzy. Which leaves us what? I personally would be ok with our overall max dps being lowered to adress the raid situation as long as our tank pets were substantially boosted in real terms in so far as their ability to hold agro and stay upright for much longer when soloing. Over all dps is irrelavent to me. I don't really care how long it takes me to kill a mob (within reason) as long as my tank pet is alive and still holding agro at the end of it. As they are now, tank pets just get owned. A real pet heal would be nice. The one we have is pathetic. Bear in mind also, that long fights should favor our dps over any other class...thats what DoT's are for. In short fights, we are often nothing more than spectators. This could be addressed ala EQ1 style with DoT's that increased their damage every tick over a longer time frame (1 min) where every tick does more damage than the tick before.
Our pets do not shell out 80% of a REAL class, nor do we nuke 80% as good as a whizzy class. The comparasion is less than 50%. Necro's always seem to under the ever seeing eye of the nurf truck and its not right. I feel that we are perfectly balanced at the moment. We are a good utility class, and under certain circumstances, we can do large amounts of damage, but so can many other (non T1) classes. We are not the solo gods many people make us out to be. We can solo effeciently, but by no means the top of the list. Want to start waving the nerf bat, take a good look at Monks. These "tanks" and they ARE tanks, can easily solo ^^^ ups. I've seen SK's, Monk's, Bruisers, and Zerkers solo mob's that I wouldnt even consider running into. How about Defilers? They can heal as well as an Inqusitor, and thats not including their wards. Yes we have good group utility, but not as good as a swashy, brig, or dirge. (I'm not saying that we should have better utility) Necro's always have and always will be the "evil" stepchild that everyone wants to see nerfed for no reason. Many people make far too many assumptions about our class through pervious games or isolated insodences. We are rarely the "best" at anything, but if played well, we can shine, just as any other class has the chance to do.
Yes wizard have half their spells left and if something was disease immune you can use your nightshade pet which uses posions arts. I dont see why you would just compare you nukes to another classes nuke and totally ignore what your pet brings but then turn around and use some flawed logic (saying your pet is a assassin or wizard type) to prove dev wanted you to be T1 dps. This is so bias...do u wanna use your pet in your arguments or not? On top of that if you think you should be T1 cause you were giving a T1 class types to your pet..why would anyone play these classes. Why play an assassin when you can still be tier 1 dps and have more versatility into changing into another T1 class like wizard when it fits the situation more, that is just stupid. On top of the fact you bring more utility than those tier1 classes (assassin forsure but there is mixed arguments about some of the T1 classes)? Jack of trades means not the best at any of them...and if the dev parses were showing other wise then it should be fixed. They said it for along time that necros were T2 dps, I play on as my alt and group buffs push the scout master pet way to close to what a real scout does, unless you are comparing to a fully fable scout then ya the real scout wins. No one likes to be nerfed but your arguments is behyond ridiculous. You say your pet alone isn't better (though I disargee in many cases) than these real scout classes but you have to see if your pet and you are better than these real scout classes. Is your scout pet and you together better than a ranger or assassin? Maybe you would enjoy a specific class over a jack of trades...many people do and that is sorta what you argument sounds like to me..might want to try one (this comment is not meant to be mean I seriously think trying new classes might make you happier if you find one you enjoy more). Ice
There is a substantial difference between clicking a cold based spell button and then a heat based spell button all lined up on your hotbars and having to change a pet (and buff it). Have you tried doing that in combat? What if we were soloing, how does killing our tank pet in favor of a scout that will get 2 shotted help us? Pet damage cannot be simplified as an extension of our own. Sometimes we need the tank pet, period, and the damage is up to us. Max dps isn't the issue. Many necros can "happily" live as a T2 dps class, but only if we get substantial pets, as we are s'posed to be a pet class. Nerfing our pets is wrong. The tank and scout pets should each have 2 types of auto attack damage that does the majority of their dps (crushing/slashing for tank and pierce/slashing for scout). The spells and CA's should be practical, such as taunts for the tank (that work reliably) and a back stab multiplyer and poison damage for the scout etc. Many of the current pet abilities we could live w/o and pet dps shoud not be CA dependant. Realign max dps, certainly, but don't kill off soloing with pets. Soloing by root/nuke is not what we're s'posed to be about. Tank pet needs to be much better.
Why are people crying about necros so much, I just don't get the mentality of people wanting to tear down other classes that can do something better than they can. Necros were complet [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for over a year, now their actually wanted in groups and people are complaining? Die in a fire all you haters, my God.
Agree with you on the 2 types of dps...Most classes when it comes to their CA or spell do have 2 types but they are very bias and half *****. Even something as small as dirge dps is primarily disease and very little poison though sony claims they can do both. Wizards have cold and heat...but if something is heat immune you are casting like 3 spells (45 sec recast, a small dot up for 24 secs, 3min recast fusion.) only unless you wanna use AEs (2 aes lots and lots of mana 447, still long recast) and even then so as the majority of the spells are heat. Warlocks, Healers etc everyone almost speicalizes in 1 type and has limited back up element...which mean sure they can cast some dmg spell but the rest of the minute they are sitting doing nothing. You explain how this hurt necros too etc, and I believe you and yes I noticed this myself when I play my alt but remember it effects a whole lot of classes too some more than other though. There is no reason for this problem and some class gotten better but over all the second element of most classes is really week and was not indended to be that weak (at least at the begining of the game I dont know what the dev want now). Why they touched the tank pet I don't know....even when I solo I use the scout pet, hardly ever use tank pet as it is. The scout pet is far better at soloing etc if you upgrade it and use your other spells to help him...though I am not max lvl far from it my necro is only mid lvl I see my high lvl friend does the same..I wuold tell you not to bother with the tank pet..you can make it so your pet doesnt get 2 shotted Iceheart Message Edited by Iceheart on 05-14-2006 06:06 AM
I'm not quite sure how poochy comes to believe scout pets can tank. I have master 1 T7 tank pet and adept 3 scout. I respectfully suggest that if his scout can tank and take 15 odd hits that he must be the terror of wailing caves because where I hunt, the scout goes down hard and very fast. A scout pet cannot tank, period unless you are fighting very weak mobs. Try scout tanking anything green ^^^ or above and I'll happly come along and aplaude while the mob eats your pet. It may well be possible, but there is no way in hell that a scout will do it more comfortably than an equivolent tank pet. But then, I'm guessing you scout pet single mobs, and only occasionly grow the stones to pick on a tough ol ^^. I'm not arguing whether or not we're s'posed to be able to solo ^^^ mobs, I'm making the observation that many classes can but our pets cannot, and they are going to be nerfed further.
Are they saying we are Tier one on Raids or grouping? I think Raids. In a good group I am very limited as far a DPS is concerned. I send in my Scout pet and can get off a lifetap before the mob is dead. Most of my spells are useless as they are DOT and the mob is dead before I can get any off. I can see in a raid where we would be Tier 1 as we should be. Most of our DPS is DOT and for long fights we should be up at the top. Our Pets don't last long on a raid-at least mine dont-and I have to keep resummoning them because of the Mob's AOE's. But I can pile on the DOT's and the lifetaps. In good groups we don't get to utilize our DOT's. In Raids we should excel because of them. Cheers, Jerril
