The reason we ended up like that was because of one of the most brutal/infamous nerfs in history followed by lack of direction/understanding in group settings for the class. The type of damage they could do was mainly through personal dot damage which really required long fights to wind up fully due to the mechanics of the spell set. The easiest way for a eq1 necro to get the potential from his/her tools was solo and so that's what most did. Most people I used to bump into didn't really know what I could do. That was all part of the charm of an eq1 necro but it pointless to compare now. What we have here is a very different beast. Lets take a look at the utility you have listed. Pet: Damage pet = Nothing but damage so utility here is moot. Roots: Good one. Roots are being nerfed though across the board though and are moot against epics. Nerf will impact ability to use it as CC in a group setting. Snares: Pretty near useless (and i'm glad because solo agro kiting is lame). Only real use is a tiny amount of extra safety trying to root/shoot. Not a real utility, snare is not needed in this game. Rez : This is a real utility and very useful clearly but with the other classes who can do it and also priest rez items its not exactly class defining. Fear : Using this in groups can be useful with root. See above for root. Too buggy to use with any real power in group setting and doesn't work vs epic. Heals: I think this one deserves attention as a real utility with no ifs and buts. Not needed for the vast majority of the time but it is there never the less. Hearts: Bit boring this one. I don't dispute they are useful but I don't login to play eq2 to cast these with their bad recast just so other people can use my power. They may aswell by crafted totems in my eyes. What we are left with is the Rez (which at least one from each archtype brings), extremely limited rooting and ghetto heal. Hearts which are useful but I just don't really don't like lol . I'd much prefer a spell based on the Mind Wrack idea. Comparing one persons not-enough utility with anothers not-enough-utility-to-make-the-difference is what we seem to be doing on these boards. Pets? When we talk about utility we are talking about groups. Forget about the pet itself being a utility when its a damage pet. Damage pet = damage and pets are basically what we do. We can swap one out for the tank pet in a click. Just so we get the message across. Do damage dealers need adjusting? Yes I believe they do. Should Summoners be consigned to a deliberate role behind damage dealers? No I don't believe there is enough to warrant that by design. You can talk all you like about tiers. I never agreed with them in the first place. Force me to talk in tiers and down this T2 path well, okay sure but then give me something to feel evil about. Something equal in importance to dishing out pain. I'm a Necromancer ffs not a nurse giving my heart to paladins. Yeah yeah, I kind of repeat myself a bit there and I'm a bit bias but hey, I'm just a bit fedup of people telling me I shouldn't as a Necro be able to ever outplague a warlock. /signing off Message Edited by Uanelven on 05-15-2006 05:34 AM
"Force me to talk in tiers and down this T2 path well, okay sure but then give me something to feel evil about. Something equal in importance to dishing out pain. I'm a Necromancer ffs not a nurse giving my heart to paladins. Yeah yeah, I kind of repeat myself a bit there and I'm a bit bias but hey, I'm just a bit fedup of people telling me I shouldn't as a Necro be able to ever outplague a warlock. " Hell ya man, well said. Very well said. Delete the warlock class and merge it with necros and conj's across the board imo. Thats my solution. Make it a Wiz, Necro, Conj, Chanty kind of caster setup and then all the fairies crying will really have something to moan about.
Pets are a huge utility that are being downplayed. THink about the necro class here with out the pets ......... there goes your solo tank, there goes that extra dps, there goes you mana conversion from hp, no it comes from necros hp, there goes letting the tank handle that nasty mob while you run off or fd. You see there is too much a necro has. In eq1 the necros negative on most groups was that we killed over time and were not burst dps. And as you say thats why most soloed, the utility helped them solo with thier form of fighting. Here necro dots might as well be nukes, they tic so fast and wear off it totally kills the reason why a nuker might be more prefered over a dot class. THis is a form of balance to help everyone be needed, and as of right now some classes are suffering becuase of this imbalance. There should be reasons, why the necro would be better at such such and such and why nukers would be better at such such, not one class taking all. As of right now the necros are over powered, this is why thier nerf has been mentioned the past few live updates. Yes necro's sucked at launch, but many other classes had some serious issues as well. It doesnt justify them being the best at everything or even close to that. A jack of all trades is just that .......... a little bit of everything doing nothing really well, its the combination of all these abilities that lets the class compete with others. Imo a necro should be a very tuff class to play, where skill is the deciding factor of how awesome they are. As of now thats not really an issue for most mobs.
I said IF our pets did 80%... I know they aren't quite that high, but honestly your 50% is a gross understatement. they're closer to 60%-ish damage wise, but then thats JUST the main pet. That's not including the dumbfires, which add a nice chunk of DPS when they're up. I'm sorry, I think the whole we don't solo as well as ... is complete BS. Yeah we also solo much better than ... But you never hear that. Yes, I see monks getting a change at some point if they're doing too well vs mobs they shouldn't, I don't expect to stay broken for 1, so it can stay broken for all. Personally, I'd like to see you try to solo... the stuff necros can't solo IS NOT MEANT TO BE SOLOED regardless of the fact that some other class also has a momentary advantage in that area, this doesn't justify leaving everyone out of sync with the environment. And you're assessment of us not being the best at anything is short sighted. Necroes are the best at being prepared for anything. When my Inq is in a group that needs DPS, all I can do is heal. DPS aint at all an Inqs thing. Ever asked a wizard to off tank an add? Ever ask a Tank to charm or CC a mob or drop its DPS to nothing for a minute or 2? In a group I can spot heal, or off tank a mob, or root/mez one mob and charm another, and DPS a third... whatever the groups needs at any given moment, I've seldom fealt I couldn't in any way provide something to help the situation. THAT is the strength of the necro. If you need to feel superior in a specific area, then play a class that is supposed to excel in that area.
OMG you're just reaching here! 1. I have NEVER come across an immune solo oriented mob. EVER. 2. NO WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE OUT PETS. That was a design decision they made from day 1. Necros are NOT supposed to rely 100% on their pets. The class itself does significant DPS, the pets are supposed to suplement that to varrying degrees. The scout/warlock pets are supposed to give you more DPS, but be less substantial in the tanking dept, so you kill faster, but have less deffence. Effectively giving you the DPS just shy of a wiz, but also the lack of defensive ability... The Tank pet is supposed to give you the enhanced defensive ability, but then you're supposed to loose the damage your pet contributes and rely solely on your own means of DPS. And to say our pet sucks at tanking non ^^^ mobs is a joke. pets lack mitigation, but they make up for it in their gross amount of HPts, again, you will never have a problem with a pet standing up to a non ^^^ or group or ^^ mobs. They absolutely do last long enough and tank well enough to allow the necro to solo very affectively vs harder mobs.
Again, you're full of crap. I ONLY solo with my scout tank when I'm doing regular mobs. at L70, almost everything in normal zones is blue or white. Anything ^^ or below my scout can tank at adept 3! Yes, I solo regular blue ^^ mobs with my scout and it does fine. Yes it takes damage, yes I have to actually use stun to keep the mob off of it and I may need to heal it once or twice, but the damage as the scout pet is right now is enough to kill that mob! Now, after these current changes go in, my adept 3 scout may not be able to keep up enough damage to keep this up, but your "master 1" certainly should be able to. OUR PETS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SOLO ^^^ ALONE. Our pets are not the class, the player and the NPC pet make up the class. So recognize that the necro has tools he can use to lower the damage his pet takes, heal some of the damage it does take, and ultimately, if need be, root and run, or FD if it turns out the pair were out matched by the mob... and being outmatched by a ^^^ mob SHOULD be the case most of the time. Oh, and BTW, I know I can also kill low level green ^^^ mobs with my scout pet. Its very much harder cuz they CAN get 1 or 2 shotted by ^^^ esp casters, pure melee ^^^ mobs are actually pretty easy cuz they miss alot and give you plenty of time to spot heal your pet.
I rarely post, but I am tired of this nerf calling to summoners regarding T1 dps. It is true that on LONG fights we really shine with our DOTS and can parse higher than other classes. However, this is typically in a raid situation and typically the Wizards ar holding back as not to get aggro. How is that a summoner's fault that a Wizard can't just drop the big nuke whenever its up? I guarantee that if a Wizard were to non stop nuke they they would always be on top, as it is now they typically end up dead (this is not a reason to nerf the summoner class). Summoners have to worry about their pets dying from aoes which transfers the pets' hate to the summoner. In group situations I use my scout pet, lifetap nuke and fast dot. Even on ^^^ I rarely get the the full effect of my flaming pigs in group situations. However, a wizard can always use fusion or ice comet and I can never match them in dps in a group situation. I don't see why they are worried about summoners matching their dps in a RAID situation, that is where we were meant to shine besides soloing. Even though we are a class with a lot of utility, this does not mean we should not shine in special situations. SOE is also starting to nerf our utility with stuns and roots in addition to our damage. I would like to see the tank pet fixed where it can hold aggro, mitigate damage more if you are going to nerf its damage potential. I see this game ending up like SWG the way things are going, what a shame. Shame on all you that call nerf to other classes - how does nerfing another class improve yours? Seems like some kind of inferiority complex. Summoners are fun to play, so are other classes so go play your class and ask SOE to fix your class not break or nerf ours to make you feel better.
it's the sum total of all the stuff that we do that make us superior to other classes. we do not outshine other classes on a skill for skill basis
I have a baby wizzy that I've been bringing up for comparison purposes so I've been lurking the wizzy forums a bit. Most of the wizzys I see aren't calling for a round of nerfs, but rather an improvement in their hate reduction spells. If they can manage hate, they can cast more, if they can cast more they do better DPS. Seems like a pretty reasonable solution to the problem (if there really is a problem... which I'm not entirely convinced there is). Why SOE has this "knock people down" as opposed to "bring people up" mentality when dealing with class balancing issues is really sort of puzzling to me.
Becasue you have no perspective! Somebody HAS to get knocked down, you just can't see past your own self oriented view. If they "fix" wizzies so they get less agro, thereby as you say, increasing their DPS, who suffers? THE NPCs which is a HUGE part of the game. Now PCs on the whole just do more damage, and NPCs are easier, the game is easier. All this DOES affect the longevity of the game. I know most of your kind don't care, but some of us do. Balance isn't just making wizard and necros not conflict, its more about making sure the PCs are in balance with the NPCs, ie... the players aren't too powerful or under powered when compared to the mobs. THIS is why you sometimes have to nerf players no matter what. You simply CAN NOT just keep boosting one class and then another.
Who lacks the perspective here? If you think constant nerfing is the preferred way to maintain class balance, player subscriptions and overall game longevity, then I suggest you check out Star Wars Galaxies. Look at the major explosion of player subscriptions in that game that came out of all the nerfing that has gone on over the years. *rolls eyes* And... uhhh... if it's NPCs you're worried about, you CAN make them stronger if they are currently over-conned.
There is no contant nerfage. WOW you people can spin the head off anything. 1) SWG still exists and has players. And many of them actually prefer the current system. While I'm not one of them, I also wasn't a HUGE fan of the way it was released. But sometimes change is neccessary! Regardless Nerfs did't "ruin" SWG for those that left, the complete redesign of the fundamental concept did. 2) EQ2 is NOT SWG. SWG was a VERY major change in gameplay. SWG changed the entire class advancement structure! If you can't tell the difference between game balance and game redesign... well I'm not suprised. 3) Wow... well again, no suprise, you have absolutely NO CLUE what you're talking about. If you really want to screw up EQ2, go try to change the stats and balance on EVERY SINGLE MOB IN THE GAME, to try to balance the changes you make to the player classes... Yeah and keep going back and forth doing that till the PCs balance the NPCs. Wasteful, stupid, and really impossible to ever accomplish. You go try it. Prove me wrong, but any MMO publisher would laugh at you. The way you balance a game like this is set the NPC difficuly in general... Then balance the players around THAT difficulty level. THEN for specific NPCs you want to make tougher, you rebalance those specific NPCs to be more challenging. Which is exactly what EQ2 devs do. Balancing the players means balancing all player classes such that the over-all power of players remains around the same while interanlly, you tweak specific classes up and down to where they need to be.
Wow just a little hostile are we? :smileytongue: 1. There is no such thing as perfect balance. If you want to try and find it, you might as well just go four-wheeling in 3 foot deep mud because the end result is the same... you just spin your tires digging deeper and deeper into trouble. 2. This isn't the first round of nerfs. This isn't the second round of nerfs.... or the third or the fourth. The game has been in place for over two years now and they are STILL whacking people. It starts to get a little old after a while and people start getting frustrated with having to cringe each time a new LU is announced. And I'm not talking just about Necromancers... I'm talking about ALL classes. The problem is systemic, not class-specific. And I beg to differ on the nerfings not ruining SWG. It's the primary reason I and many other former SWG players I know left... long, long before the completely changed the game mechanics and yanked the rug out from under the thouands of people who had spent countless hours developing their characters. That's a whole other ball of wax. Hey, if you think nerfs are a good thing, as you apparently do, fine. I'm not changing your opinion on that. Nor are you changing mine... no matter how many "clueless" insults you hurl around. I've played more than my fair share of MMOs long enough to not really give a flip when people try to play the "n00b" card.
Elveria, the US has been around over 200 years, but we still have a govt that changes things on a daily basis. Becasue people change, the environment changes, out knowledge of the environment we live in changes, and thus changes the way we act and thing. When the player base in EQ2 stops changing, when SoE stops adding new content, when no new strategies are constructed, and when all classes are satisfied with their place in the environment... SoE can put the EQ servers on the moon and let them die there, becasue from that point the game is dying. Constant change is how you you acheive growth, biologically, psycologically, and sociologically. EQ2 is no different, change is neccessary, and as long as they impliment any change, some of the changes will negatively affect SOMEONE, which apparently everyone deffines as a nerf.
Lets see some of these logs that continually keep showing necro's out damage every one. Come on lets see some. Do we ever see em. No. Tom, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and Harry said we do too much damage so it must be true. Well show us some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing proof. Show us logs from multiple encounters. Show us logs from fights with nasty ae's and dot's of which there are loads.
Zald is not arrogant, it suffers from thinking it is intelligent. Quite simply, Zald is a masochist (one who wants to see its class suffer). Further, it is just your plain old run of the mill moron that would be better off keeping its opinions to itself.
Arrogance, intelligence... Some people can't tell the difference. Fact is, I'm right and you're not. I've never begged for nerfs, I've pointed out imbalances and suggested fixes that were reasonable. I know that children never recognize the difference, but some of you I'd expect more common sence from. In the end... as has been posted numerous places... The changes on test really aren't that bad. Of course a month from now when all is back to normal, most of you whiney ball-less he-shes won't have the spine to admit that the class is still great despite a needed decrease in greatness... But I'm the one that doesn't know his class... Hey, my greatest satisfaction comes from knowing that the class I play will be played by mature, intelligent gamers, and all the whiney, moronic wanna be slacker punks will go back to WoW, or maybe they'll just go back to hacking diablo servers so they can feel special. Message Edited by Zald on 05-30-2006 01:05 PM
The logs exist... SoE doesn't listen to the wind. Fact is that no, not every Summoner out damages every wizard... But when you compare a really decent maxed out wizard to a well build/well played summoner, the summoner is currently better. The problem is that ALOT of so-so played summoners are still doing almost as much damage as a well played wizard... Then those summoners post that they aren't overpowered... Well, relatively they are. And now you get a ton of summoners that talk about how they don't out damaging anyone... Some even complain they're under powered. Summoners had quickly become the handicapped class that everyone flocked to so they could be deemed ubber despite their lack of ability.
"Hey, my greatest satisfaction comes from knowing that the class I play will be played by mature, intelligent gamers" ? I hope your post wasn't intended to be an example of said maturity and intelligence.
