We should be coming in about 140 DPS for this fight. you sir are living in a pipe dream, I sure wouldnt complain if my DPS was that, but I am not gonna complain cause its not. I dont expect to do more dps then a rogue, and I really dont think SoE thinks I should be either. Oh yea, and if someone wants to make claims about 500 sustained DPS warlocks, back it up with some evidence. Also KaltenAlThor , read my post, I explained the fight, and clearly you didnt read that, my sustained DPS was at least 80, likely more, as I neglected to be in range the first minute and a half. Message Edited by Eater on 04-21-200504:26 PM Message Edited by Eater on 04-21-2005 04:27 PM
Ever notice how Eater ignores my posts because I basically school him? Yeah, breeze is DPS just the same as drink, rezz, and armor are DPS. He won't even acknowledge my post because it points out a serious flaw in his arguement. You can't run around saying buffs are part of your DPS otherwise a slippery slope occures and you can state all kinds of diffrent things are DPS. "Healing is DPS because if a rogue lives he can stay alive to add more damage to a mob" p.s. Even the devs have said we need a DPS boost.
Eater, you've decided that enchanters are not a DPS class. Most of the rest of us believe that enchanters *are* a DPS class, and should be parsing more than melee. This is not equivalent to saying that enchanters should do the same damage as warlocks. There is considerable room for a middle ground. God-Of-Avalon, I do not think people ignore your posts, here and elsewhere, because you have 'schooled' them. You often make good points. However, you consistently use being correct as an excuse to be extremely rude. Someday, you may want to consider that calling people idiots is among the least effective debate tactics known. If your goal is to insult people, you succeed consistently. If your goal is to change minds, you may want to rethink your tactics.
I ignore his posts because he hasnt demonstrated himself worth my time, with his senseless, pointless, unthoughtout posts. I got a new parse for you ill post later, I do about 100 dps single target and 140 multi. Also, my guild just wiped to Antonica instance (we have beaten it previously, so no comments please) But it was the nature of the wipe that makes me want to bring this up. We wiped very simply because everyone ran out of power, and thus DPS dropped significantly. Now I am not going to spoil the instance for those that havent done it, but it requries good dps, and a sustained good dps at that. If we didnt have breeze we would have wiped 15 minutes earlier then we did, and that is a fact. So, again I reiterate, if you think breeze is not significantly connected to DPS then your wrong, albeit, long-term DPS, but guess what, that is end-game. Message Edited by Eater on 04-21-2005 07:41 PM
Eater can't live up to the challange of debate so what he is doing is wasting bandwidth. That is good that enchanters have a function in raids, now how about addressing grouping, which a lot of people do 99% of the time? Just because your utility is needed in a raid doesn't mean a DPS boost isn't needed for groups. Schooled yet again.
"Eater can't live up to the challange of debate so what he is doing is wasting bandwidth." You got some balls saying that, considering I havent seen a post by you which presented one peice of even remotely factual evidence. I have seen you trying to pass off opinion as fact which is a joke, and I have seen you trying to flame people. At least the other people in this thread that disagreed, offered some form of intellectual arguement and counter-exmaples, albeit it flawed in some ways (using extreme values for example, encanta ) And hold on to your-self there buddy, group parses are coming, (I was gonna say "and you will see we are quite appropriatly situated in terms of DPS" but then I realized it wont matter what DPS I demonstrate, you wont be satisfied. Just becuase you cannot pump out decent DPS, you think its a class issue, is it really out of the realm of possiblity you just dont know what your doing?). You cant have everything big guy, so if you dont like utlity, and all you like is DPS, then again let me direct you to the wizard/warlock forums. I accept my substanitally weak DPS compared to magicians and sorcerers, because thats all they are: DPS (well and power feeders, which to be honest while it is there only utility, its a very important one, raid wise). I can fill thier group slot with 1 of 12 classes. But my spot can only be filled by two classes, and while I am not a required class I sure am specifically a desired one. If people could post some statlyzer images please, I would like to see some factual stuff on how other are fairing group wise and raid wise, and even solo wise. I would like to know if I could be pumping out higher DPS and other Illusionist combat stats to determine their methods. Also please, anyone whether you agree or not with me, its best to see from different sources, so please post tests and whatnot here. Oh yes and please include relavent information (i.e. spells levels, group compositions, etc...)
Ok, Eater, simple statement, tell me if you agree or not. All non-healers must provide DPS during a fight. If you do not agree with this statement, then you are saying enchanters are just buffbots with no DPS obligation to the group, so we are just there to provide breeze. If you do agree with this statement, then you need to evaluate our DPS in accordance with all other non-healer classes. Then, since you are interested in doing DPS tests, do this test: take a group with an enchanter, and see how fast they kill a mob. Take that enchanter out, replace it with any non-healer class, (scout, tank, or non-enchanter mage) and see how fast they kill that mob. Guarantee you that the 2nd group will kill faster than the first group. Our utlity spells do not make up for our sad dps. We are not adequately fulfilling the requirement to do DPS. Breeze does not increase DPS, it can increase the duration of the fight, the same way heals do. I have been in raids that killed x4 level 50+ raid mobs. Breeze is helpful, I wont deny it. But, on the actual raid mob itself, my DPS contribution was minimal. This is really a pointless argument anyway, SOE has already stated they will fix chanter dps. Just a matter of how and when. Cylanth 50 illusionist - Crushbone Message Edited by Cylanth on 04-22-2005 12:11 PM
From my experience with warlock and illusionist in comparison, i can ensure you that DPS is not the only thing they get. Just cause you are not aware of their utility (and they usually prefer to go straight dps) that doesnt mean they dont have it.
Btw Eater allow me take opportunity and enlight you what utility bring warlock on table during raid aside of DPS a) STIFLE raid mob for 1min12sec (ya hard to stick it, ya if tank cannt hold argo its suicide but if you do things right 1min 12sec full size stifle) b) STUN raid mobs (Dark Nebula) c) massive DPS debuff of raid mob via str debuff and! debuff of mana pool of mob via int debuff d) Direct power transfer from warlock to target - recast 12s and its cost life for warlock but ... it work e) Best in game (imo) Melee proc buff - 10% chance to do a lot poison damage per hit f) massive magic and poison resistance buff g) defensive mana regeneration proc (compareable to clarity/insight) 10% chance too True that main job of warlock DPS but this doesn't mean that warlock dont have utilities that make baby jesus cry
As Illusionist in Permafrost, i dont grouped with you, but i know you was member of Triton and now Atrocity. Thats means you where in uber guilds, and for sure you have a lot of masters in your spell book and amazing items. I dont complain that, every player plays like he want, but plz, dont compare your dmg with the dmg of other illusionist becouse those illusionist can not be in your same situation of spells and items. Not all ppl plays in uber guilds, and when we talk about illusionist dps, we talk about the base dmg (app1). Some has talked about the solo content of the game, at this point is a fact no other class in the game solo worst than the illusionist. I will give my right eye for solo like a templar, ( or another class thinking to plays in group, like the illusionist ). Sampy - 49 Illusionist - Permafrost
What scares me about this list is that outside our power regen spells, Warlocks seem to have better utility then we do. Yet we have alot of people saying "if you want DPS go play a sorc", perhaps they should be saying "if you want DPS or Utility go play a sorc" course if you want to be a Energizer Battery play a Illusionist.
Pretty much all classes have some sort of jaw dropping utility. My gaurdian has awsome protection spells that absorb damage from a player of his choice. Druids get jaw dropping buffs. Each class has a couple of very cool and wanted utilities. Ours is breeze and mezz. Just because we have a couple of awsome utilities just like all the other classes, doesn't mean we should do no DPS, especially since we are in the mage subclass.
"If you do agree with this statement, then you need to evaluate our DPS in accordance with all other non-healer classes. " I do agree with the statement, and I *always* look at my DPS as it is relative to all other classes. Furthmore, I have stated previously, that my perspective *is* from that of a hardcore raider, yet I am still seeing posts pointing out that not everyone has "Master I everything", if DPS sucks at lvl 30, then by all means push for an improvement, but that doesnt concern me because I *am* level 50 with a buttload of Adept III's and Master I's. So please leave sub 50 discussion out of here, as it holds no relavence, I mean to say nothing in regards to sub 50 grouping raiding soloing, whatever. "Guarantee you that the 2nd group will kill faster than the first group." It will not, and I know because my regular grinding group parses constantly, and I have been shown (via combatstats and statlyzer) as well as having parsed myself. I range in a grind group between 90-140 dps depending on if I am straight DPSing or buffing or it is single vs multi target etc... I was in a grind group in SE awhile back, we were just goofing around on bats trying to break 1000 dps for the group. We had a guardian, templar, Illusionist, Bruiser, Troubader and Mystic A similiar group of 5, ended up getting trained by our own group member with roughly 7 or 8 Fire Giant encounters, without power regen, we wouldnt of made it. I mean, the power regen can be equated do DPS simply because in anything longer then the amount of time it would take you to burn your power without Breeze, you have that much more power to DPS or heal or do whatever the heck is needed to win. It wont *alway* be equated to DPS, but then again, even a nuke doesnt directly equate to DPS if it being used for an HO. So I prefer to look at the entirety of my class. But here I stand before you - telling you - that at end-game I find more then a little situational use for all of my spells, and while there are obviously a few areas I would like to improve, my straight DPS isnt one of them. I do look forward to the DPS increase, but I feel once the rogues see my parses, they are gonna start complaining. Oh well sucks for them. Its just the complaining, the "I am a buff-bot" threads, they finally got to me. Seriously, if you think your a buff-bot, you really are not doing everything you can be. "Breeze does not increase DPS, it can increase the duration of the fight, the same way heals do. " This is true but slightly misleading. Heals will NEVER decrease the length of a fight (they will at best keep you alive, increasing the length of the fight giving you more time to possibly win). Breeze will INCREASE and DECREASE the length of the fight. It will allow healers to keep healing (increasing, by nature of heals), and it will allow DPS to keep DPSing (decreasing by nature of DPS). So while its not only and completely a DPS increaser, it is partially. It holds a sort of double benefit, which I (and everyone I know) finds most beneficial in grind and raid. "I have been in raids that killed x4 level 50+ raid mobs. Breeze is helpful, I wont deny it. But, on the actual raid mob itself, my DPS contribution was minimal. " My DPS contribution has never been minimal. Just today on Drayak I DPS'd at 140 DPS for waves and 90 DPS for Drayak himself. I do not know how much they are upping our DPS by, but if I am DPSing at 140 on Drayaks himself, wizards are gonna start complaing. One wizard did 72 DPS, the Swashbuckler did 95 DPS, No bard passed 110 DPS. All on this same fight. Maybe there DPS sucked cause they didnt want to pull aggro, but if I can unleash higher DPS then a wizard without pulling aggro?? Well....that just makes me feel uber. Yea I have seen wizards in groups break 200-300 easy, so I do know their capablities. But again, I point to my "end-game" raider disclaimer.
Eater nice try .. My main lvl 50 coercer with halth masters and rest adept 3 for offessive part in pure DPS mode I cannt sustein more then 90DPS no matter how hard I try, for AE my DPS drop down to 30-50DPS (for obvious reason, AE stun/AE mez/Single Stuns)... Warlock on Dayrek fight sustein 350-502DPS depend on debuffing, during waves he clock around 700DPS Wizard have problem on raid for simple reason mob resistance to ice and fire is fubar .... total fubar. And guess what? main sourse of DPS for wizard is IceCommet with Immolation/Ball of Flame as secondary/trinary add ons
Tanatus, I have never (i dont think) denied that a warlock can do insane DPS, I just want to see a piece of evidence, Statlyzer or combatstats, or some other parsing program. I dont often parse warlocks, so I cant say for certain anything in their regard, but I have seen one warlock (Ranvier) do very impressive amounts of damage. Edit: Oh and yea, it does seem wizards are getting the shaft atm with the resistances, but currently in terms of their effectiveness in raids, I sometimes give them a run for their money and as wrong as that may be, right now thats the case and does effect my PoV on myself on the DPS scale. Message Edited by Eater on 04-25-2005 12:20 PM
Eater, was that wizard afk/lagging or feeding mana to a MT/healer or doing something other then max possible dps? I would guess so, does every dps person that your rattleing off stats for have equal number of master 1 and adept 3's as you? have you considered that just because your max level now doesnt mean 50 is gonna be the max level after the expansion and that you will be back to grinding xp to get to level 60 or 75 or what ever the new max level will be with the expansion? with the way our dps scaled to this point do you think you would be as happy with our dps if you had to add another 20 levels and didnt have full master one drops yet? have you tried soloing any of the new high level writs? and compaired your ablites to solo vs other classes that are simlarly equiped as you? I would betcha a gold piece that other classes can solo 2 or 3 mobs in the same time it takes you to do one.
Comparing with the wizzies in high end raid is not good, as there is a huge issue with them in most high end raids: they can't either fullfill their role here and are reduce to mana batterie as we are, because they do ice and fire damage, and mobs resist versus thos damage are insane (many of them are immune to them). They need to be fixed on that (prolly mob need to be fix), and that's what wizzies are currently asking. Compare DPS with warlock, who are what they're supposed to be: we're not even approaching a quarter of their DPS. We simply can't. Devs prolly don't play any chanter nor a wizzie, as few fix come along for these (warlock have been made good, and wizzies could be if there were not such cold and fire resists...). Oh yeah, they plan to fix the very high tanks DPS... in lowering mob resists... vs physical damages... still nothing for resist against wizzie damage. So comparing our DPS to wizzies' DPS in high end raids is silly. It is as silly as comparing illus DPS with coercers', as it's two gimped class in these situations... DPS can't be compared in particular situations where one will make no damage because of the resist of the encounter. Though I agree that DPS comparisons should be done at equal number of master I and adept III spells for damage spells, else it's pointless. It just says "hey, with my master I's i outdamage you and your App I's...."
There is nothing wrong with our DPS. Adding to our DPS might take 5-10 seconds off any particular raid mob encounter and will have nothing to do with the overall outcome of the fight. Give me a stifle that hits raid mobs. Give me a decent stun that hits raid mobs. I'd take those 2 over any DPS increases. With the way current buff agro works, I can't go full DPS mode anyway if I am buffing more than 2 groups.
