Why do Monks always get Ignored and continue to WAIT?

Morgane@Everfrost wrote:

You quoted one line of a paragraph. I listed a few ideas after that.
Seriously, most of the people griping here are tanking raid mobs anyway. Yeah we are imbalanced but only in tanking, its harder for us. If its gonna be harder then yes we should have more dps than plate tanks....but not rogue dps. And to be quite honest alot of that comes from set bonuses. Fix itemization and you make 3 giant steps forward to fixing brawlers imo.
I agree we need help, but in answer to the OP.....Monks get no help because we whine too much and can't even agree what to whine about.

Sirhk wrote:

I did almost 12k on Gynok last night, we don't need more dps.

BChizzle wrote:

I agree. What I said was 'IF its gonna be harder for us to tank then yes we should have slightly more dps than plate tanks.' Not rogue dps though.

BChizzle wrote:

Not impressive at all.
Any fighter can deal but higher dps with your gear/raidsetup and tanking at same time.
The fact is 12k is really low for gynok encounter with your hit rate; 95%+ hit rate.
Most aoe tanks with inferior gear can deal 15k+ dps and they are tanking so that they have much lower hit rate; 60%-70% on add and even lower if main tanking gynok.
For example, http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4422/gynok1.jpg, 17k dps with only 60% hit rate whiling tanking adds.
Or 21k dps for another sk whiling tanking adds.
Your number just proved that monk dps needs an upgrade.

Sirhk wrote:

We won't get rogue dps nor guardian survivability. Someone just can't understand it.

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

I don't see you doing 12k or even close. It was without a brig too. The sk parse was with broken procs LOL way to make an argument.

BChizzle wrote:

I wonder why...maybe because your 1 out of 8 Monks who kill Avatars and all the high end content? GET IT IN YOUR HEAD, not everyone is in the same position as you!!! Quit being an idiot for one post, actually if you dont mind take your self over to flames and rant how cool you there are cause you parse high, WITH GEAR! Man your pathetic go ruin someone elses thread, getting annoyed reading how your always "right" when everyone is throwing their opinion out there...You have to instant flame it! omg! Hey word of advice, seems you need some Chiz, role a plate tank I heard they survive better on ae fights.

BChizzle wrote:

Becasue my job is tanking gynok with tank gear. You are in offensive gear and didn't tank or just tank 10 sec to rez MT.
Though, it's not the point. The point is monk dps is way behind plate tanks.
The fact is, any guardian with similar gear/ group setup can deal 12k too and they have better survivability.
Not to say, any other aoe plate tanks can deal more than 12k and tanking at same time with better survivability.
When you are in offensieve stance and dps gear, your dps is not better than plate tanks while tanking. This is the serious problem. No, our dps is not fine.

First off, lets be honest--I think we can all agree that the class is broken right now and needs fixing. The real question is how to fix us, and there's basically a couple models being kicked around.
Option 1: Give us survivability as good or almost as good as plate tanks, and let the competition for tanking slots be won by player skill instead of which class you are. This would involve our DPS being no better than other plate tanks, which means minor nerfs at most since we're not much higher than them now.
Option 2: Up brawler dps to significantly higher than plate tanks, leave our survivability significantly inferior to them, and have us serve as "snap tanks" viable for things like Zarrakon's adds or tanking for about as long as it takes to get the MT back up. Would probably mean slight nerfs to our survivability
Option 3: The Hybrid model--Let us choose whether to be tanks or dps based on gear, AA, and stance choices, but make the two roles distinct (i.e., in one spec we can either have high survivability OR high dps, but can't do high dps while tanking). This would have us by necessity as not the absolute best in either role, but viable in both.
Option 4: Utility. Completely revamp the class to make us the fighter equivalent of a bard or enchanter. Probably the best way to guarantee a raid slot, but by far the most unlikely since it means completely changing the class concept.
Now, I'm honestly willing to take any solution that fixes the class and gives us a useful role in a raid. Personally I prefer option 3--I'd like to be a solid tank when I need to tank, and to put on my dps spec/gear/stance when another fighter isn't needed instead of sitting out for another scout. It has the benefit of flexibility and only gearing up one character instead of two, and with a weeee bit more utility could be extremely viable. I'd suggest a handful of changes to accomplish this:

• Up meditative healing to 40% (as was planned in the fighter revamp)
• Remove the TSO Heal AA and add in a solid dps option
• Move abilities around in the EoF AA lines to seperate tanking and dpsing abilities, forcing a brawler to choose which line they want to go down.

Switch eagles fury (melee crit) with claw reversal (+deflection chance) to make the str line dps and the int line tanking based, and up the MC and DA to be equal to that obtained by plate tanks for equal AAs
Make Eagle Shriek (int endline) a pure tanking ability
Change Crane Twirl to 40% AE autoattack
Completely redo the sta line into an aggro control line. This gives us str: dps (single-target), agi: reuse speed/utility, sta:tanking (aggro), wis: dps (AE), and str: tanking (survivability)

• Revamp the KoS endline AAs to have two solid tanking options and two solid dps options, but arrange the lines in such a way that it is difficult to get both.
  
• De-nerf the monk raidwide
• Give us a solid and unique utility role: Make all avoidance count as uncontested for tranquil vision (so it can be used in offensive stance effectively), or, alternatively, make it affect all fighters in a raid.
• Get rid of strikethrough on raid mobs
• Get rid of the aggro-lock immunities so that peel will work properly

This requires a lot of work...but I think would basically fix the class completely if these things were implemented.

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

LAWL? Sorry but if the tank happens to go down I can pick up gynok and tank him for as long as needed in offensive stance with my 'DPS' gear. Our plate tanks DW on that fight as well, you seriously have no clue wtf you are talking about.

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Some nice suggestions however, the TSO heal AA is awesome, switching str and int KOS is silly.

BChizzle wrote:

I already stated that you have problem in reading and comprehension. Your posts confirmed it again and again.
I said you are in offensive stance with dps gear and your post just confirmed it.
On the contrary, I said I am always in defensive gear and tanking in defensive stance due to different raid set up, server connection stability, etc.
So who is the idiot with no clue of his post? You.

Deranged wrote:

QFT re: Chizzle. LoL at your "I did 12K so all monks aren't broken." You need to bone up on your logic skills a little.
Sirhk - I have seen this little canard around several times now. "Brawlers get no love because they can't come up with a shared vision so the devs don't know what to do." That's such BS. It's not the players' JOB to come up with a vision for the class. It's the devs' job. THEY GET PAID TO DO IT, FFS.
Look, let's make it easy on the Devs. Multiple choice visions. Two criteria: (1) fighters need to be balanced among themselves, and (2) if you are going to give fighters ANY role other than tanking, you need to balance them agaisnt the DPS and utility classes they are competing against.
Multiple choice answer 1: The tanking vision. Brawlers are fighters, fighters are tanks, we are not interested in balancing them for any role in groups or raids other than tanking. Result: keep dps and single target aggro where it is, buff survivability a lot, boost AoE aggro.
Multiple choice answer 2: The multiple role vision. Brawlers should be good heroic tanks, short term/specific situation epic tanks and have a viable role in a well designed raid force other than tanking. In this case, our tanking is about where it needs to be, and our DPS needs to come up by ~15-20% - to be close to, but still notably behind, rogues. You also need to make our short term survival abilities better (zero cast time on tsunami), and make snap aggro work on TSO epics.
There's really no reason, by the way, that you can have option 3: BOTH 1 and 2, but mutually exclusive. Make the AA trees and gear choices such that you can realize either vision, but not switch back and forth between the two roles on the fly. (And before anyone says "oh you just want it all, you greedy brawlers" - the same could be made true for any fighter class.)
EDIT - too funny. Vinka and I were posting basically EXACTLY the same thing at the same time. No shared vision? I think not.

Actually, switching the defensive ability (deflection chance) in the str line for the offensive ability (melee crit) in the int line makes a LOT of sense. If you like the hybrid model I'm suggesting (i.e., you can tank or dps, and do either effectively, but you CAN'T do them both to full effect at the same time), then by moving all the dps stuff into one line and all the tank stuff in another line you allow monks to stack up on either dps or survivability. As it stands now, its very hard to get lots of defensive abilities from the EoF line because in order to get the +deflection chance, +deflection, +parry, +hp, or +defense you have to spend 12 points in dps abilities first. This essentially forces us into doing mediocre dps and mediocre tanking simultaneously, instead of solid tanking OR solid dps. Simply by rearranging several abilities, we give monks a chance to specialize and choose their role.

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

QFE and well said.

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Actually the crit on the int line is pretty close to useless seeing as how we can get our crit up near to max without it. The DA however is useful. All you would be doing is causing people who need deflection chance to have to use 8 extra points to get it since they probably would already have the da bonus anyways.

BChizzle wrote:

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. Under my model it takes LESS points to get the deflection chance, not more. The str and int lines would look like this:
+int--->Eagle spin-->Deflection chance-->Parry-->Survivability special as endline
+str-->Pressure Point-->Double Attack-->Melee crit-->chi
So now you get deflection chance after 8 points spent (4 in +int, 4 in eagle spin) instead of after 12 (4 in str, 4 pressure point, 4 DA). No changes to those abilities, just moving them around so you get EITHER defensive ones OR offensive ones, instead of half defense half offense

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

You are wrong. Lets put it this way, there isn't a good monk build without DA in the str line period. There are however plenty of good monk builds that never even touch the int line. You would be FORCING another 8 points spent for anyone who would want deflection chance. While your so called fix would be ok for pure DPS builds it completely sucks for any type of hybrid/tanking builds. It would be an absolutely horrible decision.

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

I tank in what you call my offensive set up, which part of that don't you get? I am sorry you are such a horrible player you can't manage tanking in offensive, but don't say other people can't read simply because you are a scrub.

BChizzle wrote:

Yawn, when did I say you can or can't tank in offensive? That's you are not just scrub in game but scrub in real life. /shrug
Go back to pre-k is the best way to improve your reading comprehension.