What are Enchanters expected to do in groups/raids?

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Lovestar, Sep 14, 2014.

  1. arturos Active Member

    The same could be said from the coercer side of the house for our version of those spells mentioned. I will say this though that just about every other casting type class suffers those issues with dots only the first tick doubling up and with debuffs and buffs none of the ticks doubling is a game wide mechanic. So i wouldn't tout that as a cry in my beer about mezzers type thing.

    As for melee vs ranged this will be an argument that will keep going as long as it can old schoolers will say melee new school will say ranged yada yada yada its like the barber shop guys in Coming to America its more about just being able to disagree to have something to talk about, because if all we did was nod our heads in agreement this site would be dead...
  2. Lovestar Active Member

    Hey, I don't want to keep making tons of new threads for my questions so I'll just bump into the end of this one again. :p

    I've been exploring the Enchanters a little more and I kinda notice a pattern with a lot of 95 / high-AA Enchanters in that they tend to skip most of the 'support' stuff and just focus on DPS boosts. Like, usually:
    • They take personal DPS boosts
    • They take buffs that directly boost ally or group DPS
    • They avoid Threat-management abilities
    • They avoid Power-management abilities
    • They avoid CC abilities and boosts to CC
    I gathered from other threads that CC is basically disposable in most of the game nowadays (kind of the general direction most MMOs have gone in).

    Earlier in this thread people kept mentioning Threat & Power as things Enchanters handle, but, most of the 95's I'm spying on don't seem very concerned about it and clearly prioritize any point they can into +DPS instead.

    Are the Power-feeding and Threat-manipulating aspects also outdated / unneeded by the time you reach max level?

    I'm getting this vibe you spend the majority of your actual button-pressing time just trying to pour out DPS like a Wizard.
  3. arturos Active Member

    this is because of the inherent buffs that we have already are enough for the group/raid peaceful link is a nominal boost at best a coercer hate mod for a tank that has trouble already keeping agro can be fixed by a tank speccing into more hate on the reforge. cast speed and MA are a buff that requires no speccing into. As for CC was only one fight this xpac where i actually hit a mez on a mob. The rest can be ignored this includes group content. Power feeding two enchanters can keep a raid fed nicely even with power draining aspects. So while we do have some usage you will find that we can be traded out for a bigger gun that does more dps consistently even without the enchanter buffs.
  4. Treiko Active Member

    It will also depend on if said chanter raids or not.. for heroics power is not an issue... very rarely do I need to even use mana flow in heroics. Threat is also a lot less of an issue in heroics now, and if there is it usually boils down to a gear difference, and as an illy there is not a lot we can do about it. I usually forego the group stat buffs in favor of handing out more synergisms when there is high dps in the group and that seems to be enough. I can't really speak on the raid perspective but I would imagine all these things have a lot more weight there - but I could be wrong.
  5. Talathionwins Active Member

    You need more chanters then any other of the classes/subclasses in a raid. Bards can be skipped, but no matter what you always need an enchanter.

    Everything else isn't mandatory.

    Also, Melee Coercer is the funnest class I've ever played at 95. Your pretty much a spell-berserker.

    You also don't need raid gear, or high end heroic gear to break 1m dps as a coercer. I do 1.8m-4m and i'm just in heroic gear.


    The reason Enchanters go DPS, atleast on my coercer is simple. Its better then everything else. Let me explain.

    1. Going DPS and doing high DPS will help the tank moreso then anything else.
    Enraging Demeanor: 25% of "Threat" will transfer to your target.
    Each point of damage is 1 point of threat. That means if I do 1.8-3million DPS, 25% of that will go straight to the tank. That is 450k-750k threat every second. That is quite a bit.

    2. Going DPS will help the group better then going full mana healing.
    Mana Flow will keep the group at 100%, regardless if you spec into it or not. This is due to also having high DPS, because you have high Potency/Critical Bonus, which affects your Mana Flow. Each point of critical bonus and potency also makes your mana healing better. So why even spec into it?

    3. Charm is better then Mez.
    I put points into charm, because who doesn't want a slave? Screw support, I want your mind!

    4. Going DPS means the mob dies faster, which makes it funner.
    Slow zones are boring. Some zones have mobs that can last up to 30 minutes with low DPS, that isn't fun!
  6. Duffy Active Member

    I didn't want to take part in this thread, but I coulnd't help it. Bards can be skipped..need an enchanter? Obviously I live in an parallel universe /boggle
  7. Lovestar Active Member

    OK, ty guys.

    I guess I've been imagining the 'classic' kind of MMO Support class where you spend like 75% of your time managing things like CC, refilling mana, keeping buffs & debuffs up, Threat snaps, etc etc. and then throw out some DPS when you have nothing better to do (same as Healers).

    Sounds like actually you just try to do max possible DPS (including group DPS via buffs), and your support buttons are just nice fluff most of the time. :p

    Haha yeah, even though I'm still fairly new to this game, that line definitely made me go "wait, what? o_O "

    Everything I've been taught so far is that any group will kill to rope in a Bard.
  8. Lovestar Active Member

    OK don't laugh but are Upbeat Tempo and Time Compression different abilities?

    Like what I mean is, the tooltips explicitly say they DON'T STACK but UT says it adds 1 dot tick and TC doesn't. Is there some AA boost that adds the dot tick to TC? All I can find is the little bit of Doublecast in the Illusionist tree.

    Or is the difference supposed to be "You can have either some Doublecast or 1 extra dot tick, but not both"?
  9. arturos Active Member

    Upbeat tempo is from the troub Time compression is from an illy UT gives extra dot ticks. TC gives double cast since most of the mages you try to cast it upon are at 100% if not closer to 200% as it is. So that spell is useless.
  10. Iseous Active Member

    Most people don't want TC if they already have the dragon endline. And most mages are not at 100% unless they have all the maw gear, otherwise closer to 50-60, and even with the Band of the Fiery Voice, they'd still need a raid to get it to 20 increments efficiently. I think you mean casting speed, because no mage is close to 200%.
  11. Lovestar Active Member

    So... OK...

    If a Warlock has Ancient Fury and you cast TC on them, you're basically hurting them by causing their extra dot ticks to suspend? (lol)
  12. Alenna Well-Known Member

    this is Talathionwins
    in other words nothing to see here move along.
  13. Duffy Active Member

    People on my server ask for an enchanter only when they can't fill the third damage dealer spot with well, a damage dealer (for heroic content, that is). Tank-Healer-Bard combination seems to be set in stone - and I think AoM will hurt Chanters even more. A supposed support class now with even less support (in comparison to what bards get with AoM), but not a "real" damage dealing class either, even if they can dish out some damage. Pity, really :oops:
    Kraeref likes this.
  14. arturos Active Member

    given how obvious it was that double cast in top tier hovers around 50 -60 ish I made an assumption of knowledge and that i wouldn't need to fully explain the 200% number. my bad... Teach me to give people too much credit...
  15. Iseous Active Member

    Except TC is fine on wizards and probably conjurors too since they don't have as many dots, so 5% doublecast is not exactly useless, along with the extra casting, reuse, and recovery. If TC stacked with the dragon endline (or I didn't have the endline or UT), I would definitely take it as a warlock or necromancer.
  16. Gnomad_Madgon Active Member

    Interrupt's are still important, but most classes can interrupt so its nothing unique to our class. Off the top of my head there are so very few fights(mobs) that are not totally immune to stun, stifle, daze, mesmerize in current content. But you will still find a few encounters this will work in. Most opt not to bother but take the third mob in ToV Labs for instance, you could mesmerize the adds that pop. But from day one most did not bother because its just easier to either go singular focus or burn the name, or deal with the possible heal if one dies to AoEs. Our cure is solid and is helpful in a couple fights.

    Max DPS! and pray we get a fix on our base auto attack damage this year. Scouts base w/o AAs 2.0 melee and ranged. All other mages except enchanters 1.0 melee, 2.45? ranged. Enchanter 1.3 melee w/AAs, 1.0 ranged.

    Most Conjurers and Wizards prefer TC. Most Warlocks and Necromancers prefer UT or Ancient Fury.
  17. Gregore Active Member

    I always smoke the Illys on the parse in raids!
  18. Gregore Active Member

    I like the potency belts, cloaks, and purple adorn for the shoulders. I recently swapped them out for flurry, and there was no difference on my parse, but a greater PITA for timing auto attacks.
  19. Kraeref Well-Known Member

    In AoM everything changed. SDC and pot are your friends. Forget about flurry and melee. Unda spell is the new blue now.
    Even if enchanters do not have many spells that doublecast Unda damage benefit from it.

    Good luck.
  20. Character Member

    Yeah, I did this ^ the first week of AoM and my DPS took a nose dive. After a week of banging my head on my keyboard I had to go back. Melee + flurry ftw, at least for coercer. Has anyone else noticed, before adding in weapon/spellweapon damage bonus, that melee attacks are a full second faster than ranged attacks and both are a similar damage rating on the character sheet, slightly in favor of melee? That's using an eth wand and scythe. Dbl cast does almost nothing for coercer which makes flurry key and during a long boss fight, as a melee, I'll hit harder and more often than another coercer attacking with a wand in the same fight, wearing the same gear.