Yeah I hear what you are saying GansterFist. Avoidance as it is implemented in this game is pretty complex. However, I think there could be a way to make avoidance work in a way that was mathematically pretty straightforward. The question is, how would you make avoidance work in a way that the player could upgrade it? The straightforward way to implement avoidance is as a hard number based on your level. If the best heavy armor mitigates 50% of the damage at your level, and the best light armor mitigates 30% of the damage at your level, you make the monk avoid 20% more of the attacks than a plate tank of his same level. The problem is that a plate tank has to spend money and/or time to collect the equipment that gives him that mitigation. While a brawler, assuming he has it built-in, would simply get his avoidance for free. I think that brawlers need a way to upgrade their avoidance so that it is fairer to everyone.
Sence we do not know what the current midigation values are, we have no way of knowing this. Sence they are also upping the heavy classes, by 11%, if the plate midigation value is 50 and the light armor has a value of 10, the plate classes will get a bigger increase. However reading the rest of the post by midguard, I am inclined to beleive that the increase in midigation is an equal increase for all fighter classes, and sence you believe there is a disparity, this disparity will still exist.
For one thing Mama you never cease to amaze me. :smileyindifferent: Gangster and Tycho have a pretty firm grasp on what I was trying to say, and what Moorgard backed up: Avoidance is hard to code properly, and even tougher to be the sole factor for damage taken. Its too streaky (as we all know). Mitigation gives us a reliable defensive tool to use with our avoidance to make our class better overall. Is it a bandaid? Maybe, but its one that can be implemented that makes out playstyle possible in situations where right now it isn't. As he stated the increase in mitigation is SoE's effort to balance both. As for everyone saying to up deflection, I'm all for that, if they find a way to do it reliably. Which, as we all know, isn't easy. We've went from taking big hits, to hardly taking any at all, back to taking a bunch of hits. This was with what, three or four patches? Would you rather SoE continues to try to adjust avoidance (which they've pretty much stated is a pita) and have our class either too good or not good enough. That'd be as streaky as the damage we take. As Gangster stated SoE knows how to work with mitigation. If the 35% increase isn't enough to smoothen out the spikes, then maybe they will increase it, or maybe they will continue to adjust deflection/avoidance along with mitigation until we are at a nice balance. Moorgard stated in the post in the other forum that this is the beginning of the class balance changes, not the end. You can say you pay to beta test, but the truth is all MMOs are always changing, there are too many dynamics that can't be tested or thought out in advance, and the more people and scenarios you start seeing the more balance becomes an issue. I'm sure it feels like paying to beta test but that is inherent of the genre. Read any MMO board and you always see complaints of the very same thing. So I just ask everyone to not overreact and see this patch as intended, and hope it turns out well. Sure it may not (look at the agility deal) but I also realize they know how to code mitigation. It isn't as if they are taking away our avoidance/deflection/parry, they are just adding another tool to our arsenal. We are still avoidance tanks, and always will be (I hope).
The disparity has been shown in logs, and really doesn't need to be proven as it is readily apparent to anyone with even the most meager skills of observation. There has been no evidence that one had not been created, other than a handful of posts from lvl 20 characters lacking any sort of evidence. Moorgard's post is encouraging, as they realize the necessity of resolving the issue and will work on balancing through patches. The actual net increase in midigation may indeed be similar, but this is certainly a step in the right direction as it will make monk tanking more effective by decreasing the damage taken. Whether or not we still take significantly more damage than plate tanks, will remain to be seen. My only concern is this change may make the game as easy as it was before the patch. I was happy to see all of us take more damage, guardians, monks, clerics whomever, but haven't been pleased with my parses which show certain classes taking a disproportionately large amount of damage over time. Regardless, the game is constantly being tweaked to resolve balance issues. We were hit hard with the patch, but admittedly we needed some balancing. Hopefully, this will bring us closer to other fighters.
It doesn't really matter what the actual numbers were/are. What matters is that it closes the gap a little between plate and light armor in terms of mitigation. No matter how you look at it, monks will be able to mitigate damage 35% better than before which is a good thing cause as others have pointed on in previous posts the damage spikes that monks were taking (i.e. mob gets some good rolls in and gets off 600, 770, 500 damage on you in consecutive hits) was making tanking a crap shoot and that inconsistency led to alot of frustration both on the tank side and the healing side. I think this is a better fix than avoidance/deflection because it seems the mitigation value will be fixed in terms of every hit we take, whereas avoidance/deflection was a 'chance' that we might avoid a hit and that 'chance' is a roll for each hit.
Youa re correct monks will midigate 35% better, but guardians will midigate 11% better, this may not, however close a gap, it may keep it equal or increase it.
1. There was more than just one, I won't do your homework for you. 2. Even if there was only one, then that is one more log than you or any other naysayer has shown. 3. Everyone who runs a real time parser sees real time statistics during every battle, and doesn't need to edit their logs to prove the obvious to the blase few. 4. Logs aren't everything, experience is. Not a single 40+ Monk has stated they take similar damage over time relative to other classes within our archetype.
I have to ask.. does mama ever shut up? Who cares if heavy armour classes are getting an equal mitigation change to monks or not? The issue isnt -he can tank better than me- its the patch made it almost impossible to solo mobs worth fighting, and turned monks into a mana-sponge for the healers to keep us healed. Honestly for all I care... Heavy Armour wearers could be invunderable to mobs 1 level below them... I dont care about other classes.. I care about MONK... the class I love playing. So please for the love of God (or whom ever you believe in) stop nit-picking everything anyone posts just to start a riot. Constructive is good... but your so full of yourself its sickening. Chandalen 35 Monk " Don't look a gift horse in the mouth "
So, from this, I am seeing that we are going to take 35% less dmg? That is good, but I still would like to be able to evade more dmg then a plate tank by actually evading, I am not a meat shield after all, and atm, it seems I evade alot less then plate tanks. <('.')>
It will move us 24% closer. What that actually does is anyone's guess. Message Edited by RioRio on 02-10-2005 12:32 PM
Mamaseata you were in here yesterday saying there was no gap. On numerous posts you said: "We aren't nerfed, through testing with a guardian friend we take the same damage or the GUARDIAN takes more". Now you are flipping your stance. Make up your mind already. This WILL close the gap because we get avoidance/deflection/parry which the plate tanks do not get. That means while we will continue to avoid just as we do now, when we do get hit, it will be for LESS. That means the damage taken over the encounter will be less. They are raising heavy armor mitigation because of the voiced concerns by all tank classes that mobs hit significantly harder now, and apparantly SoE aggrees. While we do not know the hard numbers I somehow doubt that heavy armor mitigates three times better than light armor, which would be required for an 11% and 35% boost to be the same.
Actually I think Mama is probably correct in this case and they just gave all tanks a flat increase to midigation. This increase worked out to 35% and 11%. All in all even if it doesnt, I still think its a silly method for correcting the issue. Why try and turn light armor into medium armor to correct the monk class? Since this will effect all other light armor classes and will be a perceived nerf on all medium classes. Why not provide all tanks with a inated midigation skill and then provide brawlers with a new buff line that increases both deflection and this new skill (or just add these effects to some of the existing buffs)?
I bet I can do a better job of articulating her minority position than she can. Not only will I be more intelligible in my post, but also I will be more honest. The premise of Mama's argument is that her own personal experience has shown her that she is still capable of tanking post patch just as well as any other fighter. In order for this to be true, the disparity in damage taken should at the very least be negligible. So, Mama goes and "tests" her beliefs by fighting SOLO mobs below her level with an equal leveled guardian. They both reach 50% health around the same time consistently, so Mama concludes from this narrow test on weak SOLO mobs that monks' tanking is equally efficient. She is also still capable of killing solo mobs and filling MT role in groups. (as am I for that matter) SHE STILL BELIEVES THERE TO BE NO GAP. So, SINCE she can still tank at her level the mobs she is fighting, the countless experiences of other players fighting different mobs and at different levels must be false. These players must be weaker, i.e., not paying attention to their combat abilities or gear. Now, there are obviously more holes in this argument than swiss cheese
It is my assumption that the AC value of a piece of armor directly corresponds to its mitigation value. Thus, this change is increasing the displayed AC value of light armor by 35% and the displayed AC value of heavy armor by 11%. Unfortunately, I can't seem to get the eq2players.com item search to work right now, but it should be trivial for someone else to compare, say, the AC value on the T5 crafted light and heavy breastplates to see what the raw AC increase will be.
Well the players site item search is down at the moment but we could do this: Light armor chest = 250ac x 35% = 337 ac Heavy armor chest = 500ac x 11% = 555ac So if you are right, its not much of an increase. I presume its 35% more mitigation off the top. So say light armor used to have 10% mitigation, now it will have 45% mitigation. So a 1000 dmg hit would've done 900 damage and will now do 650 damage. At least that's the only way I can see it making a difference.
Ummm ... actually, SGTChan, my issue was, indeed, "he can tank better than me," or, more precicely, "The Fighter subclasses that can wear plate are significantly better 'tanks' than the Fighter subclasses (namely, Monk and Bruiser) that are supposed to use 'avoidance' to reduce damage taken over time." Many Monks were complaining that they couldn't solo as well as they could before. My attitude is, so what? So long as you can solo, and it's fun, who cares if you can only take on white-con solo mobs and a Guardian can take on orange-con solo mobs? In what way does their soloing ability affect yours? You're playing solo, right? However, in a group, it's a completely different ballgame. If SOE had told us, "Monks are for DPS and, occasionally, backup Tanks," then I would have no issues with the Agi nerf. However, that's not what they said. They said, "This is not EQ1. In EQ2 Monks are Tanks. They Tank by avoiding blows rather than mitigating the damage of the blows they receive. There may be situations where one type of Fighter is preferred over another but overall Monks are Tanks." They then hit us with the Agi nerf, a clear over-reaction to a limited problem. Bam! suddenly we were not Tanks anymore because we took much more damage over time than plate-wearing tanks. Thus, those who played their Monks to be Tanks (as SOE promised them they could do) suddenly were denied that ability. Thus the outrage. I must agree with many of the posters on this thread. I think that this is a step in the right direction, but only a step. It may make Avoidance tanks easier to manage for SOE by reducing the spiky nature of the damage they take but I am very concerned about the numbers Moorgard is throwing around. 11% of a big number (plate mitigation amounts) and 35% of a small number (light armor mitigation amounts) may not address the clear imbalance between the DTOT (Damage Taken Over Time) of Brawler-types and the DTOT of plate-wearing Tanks. Moreover I had really expected, when I played an Avoidance class, that the bulk of my defense would be Avoidance, not Mitigation.
I think its safe to say it will be a percentage of total and not a base 35% increase in midigation since Moor said medium armor would still be better than light. The difference would just be decreased. I cannot believe that medium armor currently midigates 35% more damage than light.
Quote by Moorgard; "After further parsing and analysis, we have decided that further delineation is needed between a fighter's ability to tank versus a scout's ability. As part of Live Update #3, we are improving heavy armor to mitigate 11% more damage and light armor to mitigate 35% more damage. In addition to making fighters tank better overall, this should address concerns raised by bruisers and monks. Light armor tanks still depend on deflection, but with increased mitigation their tanking ability should be less prone to streaks of damage. " Well, that's the whole point, and that's why the disparity exists and will be lessened. Prepatch, damage streaks where few and far between, now they are abundant and frankly quite frequent. The whole reason why we take significantly more damage than plate tanks is because of the prevalence of these high damage streaks. If the next patch is capable of producing the result stated by Moorgard, then our overall damage taken will singificantly be reduced, thus bringing is more in line with other fighters.
