I've got a question... I'm still kind of new to the ranger class and thing i've been doing well up to this point.. I finaly made it about lvl 65 and started questing in Kylong Plains. I have noticed alot of gear with the rng crit, and +rng and all that good stuff but everyone is right, you get that, maybe some good agi, but you loose str.. In turn if you loose str dont your damage go down? That just dont make sence, why have stuff with the crits and loose that stat... Ya you may get a crit hit, but you might just do more damage without that extra crit with more str.. Am I right or am i getting things mixed up.. Seems the only way to make these pieces of gear is to put adornments on them, but you only get a few str in that, and plust these adornments cost like oogles of plat to buy.. Seems to me its just best to buy mastercrafted gear and put crit adornments on those... Now with the arrows, if someone could explain cuz that is just confusing me.. I do know if you have a tier 7 bow, and are using tier 5 arrows, you do less damage.. Now when you have a tier 8 bow, using tier 7 arrows, would there be a big difference if you had a tier 8 bow with tier 8 arrows?.. I'm just kinda lost on this whole machanic arrow thingy... And where do i get a hood.. I want a hood!!!
screw hoods, they suck and forget about tiers... imo they just confuse ppl. Why not talk about lvls? Anyway, atm the highest lvl arrows obtainable are lvl 67... this makes lvl 0-69 bows do 100% of their listed dmg (IF lvl 67 arrows are used)... Any other bows over that start loosing dmg because the arrow lvl is too low compared to the bow lvl. Theres a table in some thread, maybe it was the one with the bow table pic? where all this bow mechanic stuff and the dmg deccrease / lvl are explained... too lazy to search it for ya Anyway, because of this, the bows below lvl 70 rock compared to lvl 80 bows even if they are much worse on paper. (of course to some extent) ++Xan
You've a got a malus if you are using a lower tier arrow type. This is to help woodworkers and prevent us from using tier1 arrows with tier8 bows.
Why not remove arrows from the game completely (you will always fire arrows with your bow, your bow is what determines the dmg, however no physical arrows would be present or would be needed to buy/craft/all that jazzarena). Give the woodworkers some othere recipes to do, ashtrays etc. who cares No other class is dependant on arrows (or care what dmg they do with their bow). If we need arrows, wizards should need manastones of whatever... *meh* *edit* or maybe lets give the arrows bonus dmg according to "tiers" or lvl ranges... this would remove the need for this silly arrow dmg calculation. *shrug* ++Xan
even though you are using a +70 bow and a lvl 67 arrow, arent you still doing more damage then a lvl 70- bow with lvl 67 arrows? Not trying to cause an argument on anything cuz i'm 100% sure you guys are right. I'm just tyring to understand this.
You can test it in game with /weap command. (or character window) You'll get you min/max dmg with the bow and the currently equipped arrow (first slot of your quiver). Change your bow and /weap again. You may have surprises if you have a KoS/EoF bow and a RoK (70+) one. Mine are around (depends on str also): Rigid Scale Bow (level 70) with Ichorstrand ammuntions (level 70): 667 - 3104 Silvertipped Bow (level 80): 408 - 2107 ...
Nizaaf@Mistmoore wrote: not necessarily... the dmg scales to "fit" the lv 67 arrows, which could make the lvl 70+ worse than the eg. lvl 67 bow. Of course if the lvl 70+ bow is good enuff it can make more dmg... but it will NOT make its full dmg potential ++Xan
O.k. I get it... it may do more damage or not.. but the problem is, is getting the bows to do the damage it is sapose to do...
Nizaaf@Mistmoore wrote: You're coming at this from a point of logic, which is where you are going wrong. You understand the issue, and you can see what it means and how to fix it. That's your first mistake I believe the damage reduction is about 1.5-1.7% or so per level according to the various parses people have obtained. This would give us: A level 70 bow will be doing approximately 95% of its potential AA due to using the lvl 67 arrows. A level 75 bow will be doing approximately 87% of its potential AA due to using the lvl 67 arrows. A level 80 bow will be doing approximately 77% of its potential AA due to using the lvl 67 arrows. So, you'd need the level 80 bow to be delivering 20% more AA damage just to *break even* with the lower level 70 bow. Of course, if we had decent itemization in game and if the devs had been aware of this issue when designing our T8 weapons, then this might be possible, but as you can probably guess, it's not. Hey ho. The worst thing about it all, is that we'll complain about this for months without any fix, but when they do bring out "Tier 9" with the next expansion in 12 months, all those level 70-80 bows are suddenly going to get a huge DPS increase overnight as the level 77 player made ammo arrives. Now, do you think the devs will go back and rebalance the entire tier 8, check all the mobs, and nerf all the ranged weapons to make sure Rangers aren't suddenly overpowered at that tier. Why wouldn't they ? Surely to preserve their carefully designed class "balance" this would be absolutely necessary. Must resist.....must resist....no, I tried.....but I just can't stop myself from laughing....
First, let me say that I am a new player who chose a ranger is his first toon and am now rapidly closing in on 80. Thank you to all for your help, both directly and indirectly for helping me better understand and play the class. I love playing this class - the emotional and strategic appeal of the play style just fits me. However, I am rapidly getting burned out on the ranger for reasons that should not exist. First, there is the expense. I play on a pvp server, and carry with me at all times a full set of mc posions and potions as well as a bag full of mc arrows (when questing or doing instance runs, i do however, resort to using summoned arrows). As it sits, with a full night of questing, I can make just enough coin with just a little extra to cover my consumables for a couple days. It would be nice to have some coin to pay for my spells, adornments, and other gear upgrades. As it sits now, I must spend several hours a day harvesting just to keep up to the minimum levels being enjoyed by my group members and opponents. Like many of you, I have responsibilites outside of the game and find the time required to harvest, level, and god forbid, tradeskill is just not there (yes, I have crafted several alts into the 40's, and after spending a gazillian hours harvesting to spend another gazillian hours making 100 clubs, it said screw it, I would rather quest and pvp). But you know, I could even handle the above mentioned issues because I understand that the quantity and quality of the time i invest into the game is simply my choice. What's ticking me off is I do about one instance run a night for class gear, and am growing really tired of seeing scout gear that is primarly melee weapon crit, all agi, avoidance, all that stuff. All this gear is for the most part useless to a ranger. In terms of the bows, good luck finding one, and if you do, its not all that great. If one follows the philospohy of going for high damage spreads and max delay, then your mostly out of luck because whats being dropped is exactly the opposite. Some of the effects on these bows are ok, but rangers are first and foremost supposed to be a dps class. The broken arrow mechanics issue is just plain stupid. So, i guess if i find a nice level 70 or 80 bow, I need to resign myself to using summoned arrows during group and raid fights - thats great. Even though I play on a pvp server, i really don't mind the fact they nerfed focus aim, that part is ok, and really, I have no problems with the way the class is designed to be played in terms of kiting skills, etc - as i said earlier, this play style provides me with a great deal of enjoyment and I will adapt my play style for intrinsic character changes - hey, I'm all for making the game more challenging. Then of course, as you all know, we have a lessening raid group utility due to a falling dps output relative to other classes. In other words, Rangers are an incredibly expensive class to play, are heavily gear dependent, and guess what, the gear being dropped pretty much sucks and our dps is not keeping up with other classes that are in our dps tier. So, now I'm sitting here thinking, ok, Im dropping several plat every few days on consumables, harversting several hours a day to raise enough coin to stay up to speed; all so I can go out and have fun with my friends later (with the expectation that my loot rolls will be mediocre at best) while struggeling to keep up on gear and spell upgrades. This pattern is taking the fun right out of the class for me. Maybe its time to bite the bullet and main-up a swashbuckler, because it appears from my end, that SOE has very little interest in tackling ranger issues at this point. I get the sense they are sort of back-burner projects that SOE knows needs to be addressed, but have not yet reached the levels where the decisions are being contemplated in terms of the economics of the company - until then, they are gonna focus on the things that bring in cash (LON.......), and ranger issues are not one of them (allthough, from the perception of SOE, its clear that nerfing rangers for pvp was a definate priority - $$, and I can see that). I am seriously contemplating leveling to 80 for the end game, then turning him into a full time harvester to fund an alt, which for me, is a very sad event..... p.s. my apologies for the typo's
I'm at the top of my parse for raids in my guild, but we don't raid often and I don't know that the other dps classes in my guild really care enough to learn how to get the most out of their class (not that there's anything wrong with that, so long as they're having fun). From the sounds of things though, as they get closer to 80, they'll get closer to my damage. Bummer about that. So I guess I'll be getting that coercer of mine up to raid-eligibility so I can at least be of more use to them.
This is sad... pathetic. It has taken me this long to be able to post a reply not entirely filled with spite and rage.... yes, the frustration is still there. I have given up on ever having our dps as a class balanced to the point that we aren't ever easily replaceable by "DPS class X that also provides the raid with Y". I think EoF did the best job of getting the top damage classes in line but even then it was far ideal when you looked at the whole package. Honestly, maybe not having rangers as the defacto top parser is a good thing; I like competing for the top spots on the parse. I like it when I have to really try. If the hit %s on orange con mobs are balanced out a little then as far as damage I think we won't be too far behind but remember damage is all we do. We are in dire need of some changes in the positive direction after wave after wave of nerfs. The sole ranger in NPU, and moderator of the EQ2Flames ranger forums, betrayed to an assassin. The officer and ranger of Strike recently said that if not for the trouble of making guild roster changes she would replace herself with another dps class. Oh and she is also open to betraying to assassin if the glimmer of hope that something will be done with our class fades. This thread and others like it are full of non ranger raiders chiming in echoing the sentiments we have been trying to give. The raiding ranger is BROKEN. I have finally joined the camp calling for a little more utility. Enough to warrant our placement on raids if our dps is equal (not less) then other DPS classes. These are just some thought of some useful directions I could see that going. 1) Add 20% to hit to Vulnerable Arrow. The mechanics for a increased % to hit already exist on our arrows. Make it something that effects the target so it can help the entire raids auto attacks. 2) Change Attack Hawk. Make it so that the hawk does not attack and break our stealth. Just let it sit there and decrease the group hate by 15% while up. 3) Add a debuff to Vulnerability that decreases the mobs AoE damage by 15%. 4) Give rangers and instant/quick cast heal for 25-30% of max health usable raidwide once an hour/ 2 hours. Now the %s are not important and can be tinkered with as long as the end result is some unique raid viability. As for our bows and the messed up situation we are in now.... Change crafted arrows. Make it so there is only one type of arrow per tier and they perform at the top lvl of that tier. Remove the bonuses to the hit% and +damage to help balance the additional damage. Leave room for arrow summoning objects in the game with a small +damage. The arrows from fabled summoning objects should do a little more damage and come with the convenience of less consumables. In RoK we see an entire expansion with out a single upgrade to our weapon. Nothing exists under the current mechanics that will out-perform a level 70 bow. Give us something to strive for. I know a lot of work went into getting epics live. No single ranger will equip their epic if it turns out to be a lvl 80 bow under the current arrow system. It is just sad. Edit: Oops, forgot a "not" where there should have been one.
The post the OP referred to in the Combat Discussion section is now locked. Reason? Personal attacks on a dev. It seems that the devs are using itemization as a method to correct what they see as Ranger DPS imbalance in the last expansion. Look at it this way... It would appear at first glance that we are doing fine in Kunark - several apparently decent Treasured and Legendary bows are available on the path to 80 and there a quite a few +Ranged Crit items out there. Bow Damage Ratings seem to be higher than ever.... how could Rangers complain? At least, that's how most players would see it. It's all hidden in the mechanics. It's certainly not obvious unless you understand the details, and most non-Rangers (and many Rangers) just don't. But don't ever think devs don't know what's going on. They aren't dumb. Rangers are intentionally being given a form of stealth nerf in order to allow other classes a bit of a bump comparatively. I'm sure it's not because of a conscious antipathy toward the Ranger class - it's just another way to try to balance what they see as inequities in dps. Of course, being Rangers, we are going to disagree. And if we disagree we need to continue to restate the issue clearly and rationally until it is fixed. Getting angry or and making personal attacks is counter-productive to the GOAL. I'm not much of a raider, but I have certainly seem the discouragement of looting many 70+ bows only to find that my level 59 Bylze was superior and used fewer arrows. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm putting a lot of hope on the Ranger Epic - I sure pray it delivers. And if it does, then problem solved. We only need one bow. Sure, the mechanics issues would still be there, but a nice proper epic bow would sure make it easier to put at least some of them aside for the time being and concentrate on having fun instead of the pounding our heads against the wall in frustration. Arador Stormbow Heirs of Luclin Permafrost
Arador@Permafrost wrote: I am afraid you are seeing things through rose colored glasses. No, the developers are not as bad as many here would have you believe. However, there have been numerous quotes from devs that show that for the most part they don't understand the intricacies of the class. From the snide remark that said there was no way a majority of a rangers damage came from procs during DoF, to a developer that actually played a raiding ranger using a short bow and telling us that the way to get the most DPS was to spam combat arts, there are plenty of examples of developers being dead wrong. Then there is the simple fact that if Aeralik thinks that the same arrow mechanics we are complaining about here are what balanced a rangers damage in EoF so everything should be fine for this expansion. Trouble there is that we had access to DT ammo that was only a 3 level difference and now we have to contend with a 13 level difference between ammo and bow.
I'm sorry Arador, but, the devs do know what is wrong with the ranger class and choose not to fix us. It has been made obvious by statements in EQ2flames by Aeralik that he does know. He has said 'these are the same broken arrow mechanics rangers used last expansion when they were so uber and I didn't hear them complaining then.' Of course, rangers were quick to point out that the mechanic was not as glaring last expansion because of DT summoning bows and there not being such a wide spread (13 levels) between ammo and upper tier bows, etc. I don't think I ever heard that 'rangers are too uber' last expansion at all. Yes, at some point Tenderwood arrows put rangers over the top, but, instead of just fixing that problem they decided to re-vamp the entire arrow system. It took 3 (or was it 4?) hotfixes for them to feel they had finally gotten arrows correct. It was during this re-vamp that arrows took on a life of their own and labeled with levels; +to hit, +to range, etc. Until the staff began experimenting with this new ammo system, rangers problems (at least in this fashion) did not exist in such a blatant and glaring manner. Each time he posts he says something like: while arrow mechanics are broken, I'll give you that'; OR, rangers have used these same mechanics since launch and are balanced around them; broken or not. So, you can take your rose-colored glasses off and join reality. The devs are aware that we cannot use RoK upgrades to our primary weapon and, yet, carry on day to day seemingly oblivious to the fact that we cannot use our epics (unless of course they summon arrows which match the current tier). Yes, I will give you that people released their true feelings and Gnorbl probably did need to close that post, as it was spiraling into some very angry retorts. However, it is not as if rangers weren't making valid points there either. Perhaps if the said dev had not replied in other arenas in such an antagonistic fashion, he would not have received such fall out. Be that as it may, I hope both the community and devs can work together on some constructive fixes for the ranger community. Things are certainly broken as they stand.
Kala: You make several good points. Devs have certainly shown in the past that they weren't as knowledgeable about this class as many Rangers were. However, some things like the consistently less than optimal stats of most Kunark bows (high damage rating but low crits) and low Str in many obviously Ranger items demonstrates that there is probably an agenda at work here. They KNOW that that a wide damage spread gives better dps due to the crits, but I'm not sure they want to repeat what they did before and give us another Bylze or Raincaller. Meerah: I agree with you. They know the problems but have chosen, for reasons they have yet to reveal, not to correct them. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Guys, this is probably just another episode of the ol' balance game. They perceive Rangers as being too powerful for some reason and have chosen to play it conservative and slow down our power gains at this time. The plan may be to rebalance us at the point when they rework bow/arrow mechanics - if we already have a lower dps than we should have then we won't be screaming that we've been nerfed. Heck, we may even end up praising them for increasing our dps a little. I think, as I said before, the big test of intentions will be the epic. It would make no sense to give us a bow that wasn't worth the time spent. They know the kinds of bows we want, because they gave them to us the last couple expansions. The Raincaller met or exceeded expectations. If they give us a dog of an epic bow, then they have to know they will hear about it. Now, it could also be that they are putting us off on fixes because they are coming up with a way to bypass the necessity for now. Is it possible that they are planning an epic bow that will sidestep the whole arrow mechanics issue, either by summoning its own level 80 arrows or not needing arrows at all (like the Ranger on the old Dungeons and Dragons cartoon)? Such a move certainly wouldn't upset most Rangers, and it would allow the devs more time to figure out a way to correct mechanics issues (if they intend to...). Arador
The developers understand the Ranger intimately and know exactly what is broken. Ranger issues are being left the way they are simply not deemed a priorty, and they will continue to be treated this way until the problem becomes an economic one. Fact: there are enough whiners complaining about rangers, so majority of subscribers rules.
voxranger wrote: You point out the crux of the problem. You have rangers complaining (and I am one) about how when raiding there are FAR more efficient dps'ers than we even when you DON'T take into account the issues we have regarding dependency on arrows etc. Under the current system even if Tier 7 arrows were free and unlimited we are less efficient. That being said I can't tell you how many times I have been told by just about EVERY single other dps class how "easy" I have it soloing because I am basically a nuker who doesn't need to worry about resists. How thanks to my snare's, leg shot and trap I can basically burn down a +4-5 before he even gets into melee as long as I have the room to kite etc. And you know what, in a way they are right to. Luckily most of them when confronted with how 2nd class we are in raiding will say "well yeah I sorta see your point, unless you get in good with a raid guild you probably won't see the coolest stuff" even while they still hrumph at me soloing 95% of the Kunark out door Quests starting at around lvl 64. SOE, whether rightly or wrongly seems to have decided that rather than do a fix on ANY class (Berserkers have been having issues lately too) that makes them useful both in soloing and in raid groups, that its simply easier to figure out which path is the quickest and easiest fix and pigeon hole the class into that duty. Now simply fixing arrows would be nice. It would make it so getting tier 8-9 stuff would actually be useful, rather than saying "I killed the big Epic quest. Time to hang that up on the wall and keep rockin' with Rain Caller." Getting back to AeraGEEK and his veiled threats. Well what I find interesting is that those threats didn't start until a VERY reasoned and Logical post made but our Friend from Flames.com. Anyone think that maybe a manager read it and said "hey this makes sense whats going on?" And Geek found himself back pedaling in a 30 minute explaination about how he is NEVER wrong and we are just a bunch of misanthropes? In the end though as I have said before. If the knuckle heads at SOE have a choice between 6 classes or 1 class complaining, they'll take the one and we appear to be it. As far as my business goes if Age of Conan ends up having a Roleplaying PvE server (thats still up in the air) I am SO gone.
Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote: Ahh .. and i bet you said the same 2 years ago before Vanguard came out. And of course you left to WoW when it came out because everything there is soo perfect *g* Sorry for offtopic, but i always laugh about these threats and i think every developer also just laughs about that.
