Aeralik has posted on the 'state of rangers' in the Combat Discussion area. It is under the Broken raid mechanics post. Several rangers have already caught his comment and posted. I urge ALL rangers to read this discussion and carefully evaluate his comments. This is our chance to make all those 'kill nil's' and 'fighter's need love' posts look like kiddy posts. Verifications of our broken arrows; not even looking forward to our epics; broken class spells (among others), poor itemization (the many new ranged DA items that do not have strength). Lack of procs, both on items and buffs, that do not affect ranged dps, etc. He states again that rangers are fine and that arrows have been a broken mechanic since the beginning of the game and we have always played with this broken mechanic; why fix it now? Let's tell him why we'd like it fixed! It's ridiculous for him to have read the countless posts and not understand yet that we want to 'covet' and desire to put in the many hours it will take raiding and/or questing for the newest, most elite bows in the game, only to find that previous tiers are better dps. Aeralik says: "I will look into the arrow issue but keep in mind its not going to be just a straight bump the arrows to 80 kind of fix. " Does this mean that the dev who posted MONTHS ago that 'this is on our radar' had done nothing since posting?? He is just now going to look into the arrow issue? I guess we can rule out epics that summon arrows. Oh, and again with the threats Aeralik? Can't you just post once without the threat of 'lateral shifts' and 'not going to be just a straight bump the arrows to 80 kind of fix'.? Is that to keep the rest of the population calm? I honestly don't think they see us as contenders or threats atm anyhow. It would be nice if you posted, just once, that you know arrows are broken and you are fixing them. Not these 'if I fix them' and 'I will look into the arrow issue' that coincide with veiled hints of side-by-side nerfs. Why does this dev hate us so much? It boggles the mind. To arms fellow rangers!! I call us all together. Bring together your documentation and post!
For any Developers that read here, here is a summary of what we feel is wrong with the ranger class, our observations, and our thoughts. This is a Compilation of many observations and statements of the Ranger community and not a rant but a general synopsis of the things we feel need addressed. Statement: Rangers are supposed to be RANGE DPS. We have a total of 6 Melee Abilities that we can use other than Ranged attack and the majority (85%) of our AA lines are geared towards ranged combat. FIRST ISSUE: Bow/Arrow mechanics. As it stands right now, an arrow has to be the exact same level as a bow to be able to do 100% of it's possible damage. The reasoning for this was originally so each tier of tradeskilling would be needed with each tier of levels people went through. (I.E. you could not use level 10 arrows and effectively get the same amount of damage as level 40 arrows in auto attack. The Ranged Ability damage for our skills are set in stone, and the only thing that really effects those are skills which Add to Combat Art Damage and Critical Hits.) In practice and implementation this was a fair and novel idea for players and tradeskillers alike. Somewhere along the line someone stopped following up and let this problem get out of hand. Rangers are the only class that relies on their Bow for 80%+ of their DPS, so of course failing to follow up on this would immediately effect the Ranger more than any other class. As it stands right now, the only way for a Ranger to get the damage their bow says they should be getting is to use an Arrow that is Exactly the Same Level as the bow. Mechanics-wise right now, it is more efficient and more damaging for a ranger to use a Tier 7 Fabled Bow with Tier 7 Ammunition than to even worry about upgrading to a Tier 8 Bow. Level 80 Woodworkers can only make level 67 Arrows, so there is not even an option of Tier 8 Ammunition to go with the bow. The Cart has been put before the Horse. Current Example of Tier 7 Raid Fabled Bow versus Tier 8 Raid Fabled Bow: Examples using /weapon command: No Ammunition: Rigid Scale Bow 805-3218 Dragonhawk 841-3363 As it should be, the Dragonhawk is a Tier 8 Fabled Bow and should be rated higher for perspective damage. Deathtoll summoned Ammunition: Rigid Scale Bow 869-3093 Dragonhawk 784-2753 The arrow mechanics come into play. Remember this is a raid-week lockout zone and a rather rare drop to get this ammunition in the first place. Crafted lvl 67 bodkin Ammunition: Rigid Scale Bow 892-3116 Dragonhawk 807-2776 This is the best Player-Crafted ammunition one can buy, level 67, and because of the mechanics you can get more damage with it from the Tier 7 Fabled Bow. Basically you downgrade your damage by getting the New Higher Damage Rating Bow because of the spread between Ammunition Level and Bow Level. SECOND ISSUE: Spells and Items that fail to acknowledge the Ranger Class I understand that Rangers are only 1 of the 6 scout archetype classes, but we are also the ONLY one (Once Again) who uses our BOW for 80%+ of our DPS and continues to be ignored when designing spells. Range and Melee should fall under the same buffs, however they do not. The List of Offending spells: Dirge: Cacaphony of Blades and Upgrades: The haste does stick to rangers, however there are no other benefits. This would be less DPS for a ranger than any other melee scout because our weapon delay is 9.0 while most other scouts use 4.0 and less delay weapons - We still get no benefit other than haste. Fury: Agitate: Does not work with ranged. Fae Fires: Does not work with ranged. Templar: Glory of Battle: Does not work with ranged. Holy Redoubt: Does not give ranged benefit. Sorceror: Phoenixblade and other damage spells: 0 Ranged Benefit. Guardian: Call to Siege: Does not give any ranged benefit. Items that do not give any beneficial effect when used with Ranged Attack are too many to list, and the ones that do are: Maestro's Flame (Contested x2 Epic Mob) - FROM TIER 7 Buckler of the Howler (5 Day Lockout Instanced x4 Epic Mob) - FROM TIER 7 THAT IS IT! We are starting to see the set class armor (Tier 8 Fabled) give +Ranged Double Attack and + Ranged Crit, this is a step in the right direction and for that we are thankful. Epic Quests for Ranger: 4 Epic Quest Lines, none of them useful for Ranged attack, and the one that was useful for Ranged attack was changed due to a "bug." - We'll see about the new epic, if it's level 80 it's entirely useless to us. Imbued Rings: Strength ring not working at all with Ranged. Coif of the Reet Knight: Not working at all with Ranged. Fixed - Thanks Domino! THIRD ISSUE: Raid Usefulness Because of these changes, rangers have become less useful than the other scout classes in raids. We offer nothing to the rest of the raid except some out of combat movement speed, which has no practical application in any raid setting. We offer no beneficial reason to be in a raid other than our damage and the fact that it is from range. Because of Bow/Arrow Mechanics we have less damage than other classes and combined with the lack of beneficial buffs which do not effect ranged dps Tier 8 has shown improvement to the other scout classes while it has shown stagnation in ours. Rangers are getting turned down for raids and guilds in favor of other (And Frankly, better suited.) classes which offer the same if not more damage per second and raid/group utility in the form of spells/debuffs/abilities. Please look into these issues and please keep us advised of what you are doing or that you have even read this and acknowledge it. ----------------END OF STATMENT------------------- -Hexus Lupis-
Coming from a swashbuckler: IMO, everything 'ranged' mechanic-wise should be removed from the game entirely. Bows use crushing/slashing/piercing skill based on ammo type, melee crit affects ranged, +double attack works for ranged, every single spell you listed should work with ranged attacks. I am so sick of seeing items with +ranged da and melee crit or +ranged crit and melee da, it is ruining scout itemization as a whole in RoK. Regarding raid usefulness, imo, predator classes are right where they should be in that respect, but their DPS does not stack up with that sort of balance. I can parse higher than almost any assassin/ranger and I bring a huge pallette of debuffs, hate transfer and other aggro skills, a modicum of tanking ability, I can even spec for AE avoid. I should not be doing the same damage as a predator in ANY situation. I'd be pleased to be parsing 75% of what an assassin can do and bring all the utility. Looking at it that way, I am still probably more useful to a raid force. I'm not looking for any arguments or anything like that, just saying I sympathize, and it's not just you guys that can comprehend the problems.
The sad thing to this whole situation is the ammount of info and concern about our problems/short commings on these forums and eq2flames, and again all we get in return is Aeralik saying we are just fine. As far as im concerned his responces have left me truely relizing that these concerns of ours are falling on deaf ears
Shaulin Dolamite wrote: I really think he just hates rangers. Why the big Screw all you rangers Aeralik? Yes arrows mechanics have always been the way they are, but we havent really felt it until now when we have lvl 80 bows in game. Why even put the bows in the game when they arent even upgrades to previous Tier Raid bows? As its been pointed out no other scout class has this problem, Melee upgrades are so commin its sick. But what about rangers? do we get upgrades to our PRIMARY weapon? no, we just get the shaft and get told we are "working as intended" which is complete BS. Yes some Rangers are still putting out great Dps even being broken but thats because we have to work our *** off / have illy/dirge in group just to do that. Are you telling me your honestly to lazy to fix a problem that has been in the game SINCE LAUNCH? Thats says alot, thanks.
History repeats itself. I can't say I'm surprised. http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...37� (note the date is during KoS) Quite simply, assuming the devs are being honest and truthful, either their data collection and analysis methods are seriously flawed with respect to the ranger class on raids, or else the standards they set for ranger raid dps are far too low for them to actually be a raid-viable class.
I think the point was that this is how it should be - you should have one crit stat (melee and ranged) and one double attack stat (melee and ranged) - not how it is. Because the next sentence is saying that everything with ranged is ruining the game for the other scouts. RoK has made itemization somewhat better for scouts but not much. We do get more + ranged, + ranged crit, + ranged double attack - but it does come at a cost that most of the melee classes don't have to pay (sacrifice str to get it). Items that proc from ranged are basically useless to us in a raid environment (I did get confirmation from the items dev that the reet knight skullcap will proc on ranged attacks next GU). I got the dead-eye boots (ranger/assassin fabled) this past weekend and the only thing that was better on them than my current legendary boots was more Int and less Agi , The resists were less than 100 better than my current boots. If I had not been the only Ranger / Assassin in the raid I would not have taken them.
TRUE STORY: The set helm dropped for us a couple weeks ago and by then, both the assassin and I had better and niether wanted it. The transmuter that got chosen got the discovery for it for the server! Too bad it was just an infusion. LOL.
While we do "pretty well" there is still an arrow issue that MUST be delt with. The mechanics themselves are just fine. The problem is that Sony just provided us with a bunch of new level appropriate bows WITHOUT the level appropriate arrows to go with them. Frankly I don't care how Sony does it, but if they are going to put a level 80 bow in the game then PLEASE put a level 80 arrow in the game to go with it, otherwise just leave the new bows out of the game, the way they did carpenter recipes a while back. Now the simpilest way to address this issue would be to make all of the player made arrows be the top level of the teir they were made in, just like you do with food and drink. I.E. a level 73 woodworker makes a level 80 arrow (instead of a level 67 arrow), just like a level 73 provisioner makes level 80 food (instead of level 67 food). And just like food, make arrows usable in exactly the same way, i.e. a level 71 player can use a level 80 arrow the same way a level 71 player can use level 80 food. Leave the bow/arrow damage mechanics EXACTLY the same way they are today. They are fine the way they are. We just need a level 80 arrow to go with our new level 80 bow. Oh and by the way this has NOT been an issue since release. Back then arrows did not have a level. At least not a displayed one. Yes providing us with level 80 arrows would increase the ranger DPS the same way EVERY OTHER CLASS's DPS increased from 70 to 80 when they got their new weapons/items. Now if the developers do not want to increase the ranger's DPS TOO MUCH then THEY can simply adjust the damage rating on the NEW T8 bows. ALL other bows are already in the game and doing as much damage as they are ever going to do. You do NOT need to adjust them. The real problem is that a level 80 ranger using a top end level 70 bow (like RSB) can out dps a level 80 ranger using a top end (like Vol'Drath) level 80 bow. That is SO WRONG in so many ways that we should only have to say it once and the problem should be gone. A level 80 ranger using a brand new level 80 bow should be doing MORE dps than a level 80 ranger using his level 70 bow. Why is this, simple, both are really using a level 67 bow because the best arrow in the game is level 67. So the simple sollution is to give the level 80 ranger a level 80 arrow to go with his level 80 bow. Why is this so hard??? Now if the new level 80 bows are giving the level 80 ranger TOO much dps, then adjust the level 80 bow's damage rating. You do NOT have to adjust the level 70 bow, it is just fine the way it is, along with every other "old" bow in the game. And if arrows always did have levels they certainly were not displayed and they did not cause the highest level bow in the game at that time to perform worse than one 10 levels lower that it.
dbmoreland wrote: And i Qoute: Third, I stand by the ranger comment. Our data shows them exceling in all dps categories even with mechanics working against them. I've also seen them first hand do pretty well in pick up groups, soloing and in raids. So while you have a point that the mechanics are wrong its the same mechanics that you have been balanced against since the game was released. I will look into the arrow issue but keep in mind its not going to be just a straight bump the arrows to 80 kind of fix.
Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote: Aye, I apologize for that misunderstanding. I think the whole ranged skill, ranged crit, ranged da, should be removed from the game and meshed with melee. It's not like necros use a different type of BoE and spell crit than say, warlocks, right? It's ruining our itemization by comparison to theirs.
dbmoreland wrote: The arrows worked the same way before. The original post I did was before they made the change to display the level, and it worked out exactly at level 57 was 100% with T7 ammo.
Meerah@Permafrost wrote: Isn't he an assassin? Just once I'd like to see a dev who actually plays our class efficiently give their opinion on what we need and don't need.
The only chance i see for fixing the arrow problem is making a post in the tradeskill forums and catch the attention of Domino, or maybe write a good PM to Domino. She is at least the only Dev that cares about what people are writing and gives comments about what is planned or possible and what not. And as Tradeskill Dev she has also maybe an interest that receipes are not broken.
We did post in tradeskill forums . Domino referred us to the itemization dev. The itemization dev referred us to the game designer dev. This has been months of chasing our tail and now Aeralik makes it sound as if we are 'imposing' upon him to fix 'broken mechanics that we have been balanced around since launch'. What a joke.
It's so funny, in summary Rangers are a broken mechanic. With tier7 weapons we are achieving 'decent' damage in tier8. I feel better. Broken since launch ? RoK launch ? We were balanced so many times since nov 2004. Arrows mechanics are 'broken' since RoK (as a matter of fact DT summoned arrows or tenderwoods are supposed to be tier8 arrows, they are level 70). When it was introduced, informations about arrows were to clarify the situation not to state a 'bug'. For many years you could use tier1 arrows with little to no difference in damage output. Epics are due today and whoo! Let's quest for a tier8 bow that will do less damage than a good treasured or at least a legendary tier7 bow. Furthermore if the fabled -final- version asks for a raid boss kill that is currently unkillable... The legendary version as it stands now can not be better than any tier7 fabled bow and prolly most of the legendary bows... Only the effect or proc may make a difference but honestly I don't see what can be done except summon red noses and a clown suite... So much expectation... but at least it may make things change...
Wades wrote: Yeah, arrows only started to count when they "fixed" our "broken" procs before KoS release. In DoF times i could use level 1 arrows because 60% of my damage was poison and procs, and autoattack was maybe 10%. Now however we do 50+% autoattack and poision is just 10-15% or whatever. But hey .. since there are sooo much great Bows in the game chances are good that i still run around with Raincaller at 80. A wait .. i forgot i bought the Terens Grasp Faction Bow last Sunday .. and since that bow looks so crappy i really got the Server Discovery for it
Thank Gods there are new manequins. When you have completed your epic you can hang it and forget about it in your house .)
Tier8 Ammo Is truly T8. Yes, it says 67, but it is T8. BUT! A level 80 bow is considered Tier9 by the mechanics, I believe. So , what should happen is that our epics should be equipable at 67. That would probably give us the best bang out of them.
