Actual numbers: we are seeing maybe 12-20 bil a person on divine inspiration. Actual numbers: pally 1.5 trillion So SK 30% more = 450 billion to Divine inspirations 20*6=120 billion I get that your raid is seeing way more out of it than my raid force is It's not about feelings, its about actual numbers I've seen. I can do this all day as well - my point remains that they are relatively equal and different setups will see more out of each class.
And I'm telling you as a guy with a single crusader with ancients+ on every viable ability across Pally and SK, theyre not. I can watch my groups dps go up mid zone with a betrayal token. My personal dps goes down, but the groups increases. Same players, same skill, same gear. No variables other than the tank class. My dps can go all out sooner with less time for deagros. My healers are healing less and parsing higher. I can rez faster and better than any class in game on a Pally. Its night and day. Im actually going to betray tonight because I honestly feel like the Pally does it all better aside from personal damage. The Pally is the superior class. Heck, they may be better than zerks. I think a Pally could parse with a zerk in similar gear and the right group/ascension.
That's great that for your specific group pally's group buffs did better than the extra personal damage on SK, but the same is not true of every group.
For funsies; I pulled Divine Inspiration and Unholy Hunger at Ancient. Divine is 582B-970B, Hunger is 203B-338B. This is in Nek forest atm because i'm swapping deities, but mathematically; it's impossible for Hunger to outdamage Inspiration. They have the same trigger rate. If your group with a pally is only getting 20B from Inspiration, something is dramatically wrong. And the group you're proposing is a one off. You're talking about running 4-6 T1 mages in order for 20 effectiveness to outweight the benefits of 67 fervor to your priests/fighters. There's no maybe. It's a mathematical fact. At least assuming your T1 mages arent gods compared to your fighters/priests. In a world where all roles perform equally well at their given class, it's in favor of the Pally.
Most our priests don't do that much damage, we don't have high damage priests. Two tanks do alright damage. Our mages combined easily do over quadraple the damage of all the priests+tanks combined. That's with just 3 T1 mages. The damage of 6 healers+2 tanks isn't hard for 3 t1 mages to do way way better than. It's not a one-off group; I know other raid forces who combine all their mages and its way more damage then they are getting out of their healers and tanks(and most tanks are capping fervor so not benefitting from the fervor, though most priests will] I get that the one spell for the SK reads are doing 1/3rd of the pallies version, but for some groups that proc isn't much anyways, so loosing damage on it for the tank to gain 30% more damage is easily better in that situation. It all depends on your setup and what will be best for that. Even in non-ideal for the class situations they come in pretty close to each other relatively. I wish more archtypes had the same level of balance as SK to Pally does. [Which some are pretty even, but others are miles apart]
Ok, more fun maths. Let's say that your T1s, with tons more fervor OC buffs on them than your typical raider is doing the highest sustained dps i've personally seen so far this year at 12T. Let's pretend they get the full benefit of my 20 effectiveness on myself of .87% increase. Let's do the math together here. 12T * .0087= 104B. So, hypothetical 6 mages in you raid decimating the mob are gettting a combined 624B. Add in our 40B dps/group member for Hunger and you're at 664B RW damage increase from the SK. + their 30% of your pallies 1T dps, 964B. You really don't think that a pally giving 120B dps/group member (because let's use smaller numbers for pallies cuz it's fun, right?) plus 67 static RW fervor to your fighters/priests AND 30 Fervor/Fervor OC to everybody is worth more than 1T? You don't think there's more flexibility in those capped fighters being able to use a different blue weapon adorn or your priests that happen to be at cap as well? Really?
Have you looked into what spell tier and whether your pally is specced into buffing inspiration? It's surprising to see it do that little on a raid parse when I've seen it do more on my gimpy pally alt (not in raid to be fair). What you're saying about priest dos was kind of my point earlier with crusade. The healers in your raid have to try at least some to make it more valuable than unholy strength, so if they aren't it won't be as valuable, but why shouldn't they be? A good healer can put out respectable dps while keeping a group up, especially if they're a part of the fury +mystic meta. Ik in my raid we have two healers who routinely parse 750b + (being vague cause irk how much im allowed to say) and giving them 65 fervor would be big bump to their dps especially since they're uncapped. If the only people in your raid trying to do dps are the t1's then yeah, sk buff is better. But pally hits 4-8 priests and 2-4 tanks. The individual bumps to dps don't have to be massive to add up to a lot of dps
As I've said multiple times it depends. Different setups will get more out of different stuff. Keep in mind 20 effectiveness is the same thing as 20 fervor, just uncapped from a calculation standpoint. So comparing to the 67 fervor priests/fighters get if your combined mage dps is more than quadruple your combined priest+fighter dps you will see more out of the 20 effectiveness than the 67 fervor to priests/fighters(assuming your fighters aren't caping so can make use of it). I'm not saying letting your one other fighter in raid, plus yourself as a pally wear a different blue rune doesn't provide flexibility. But overall looking at the two classes, whichever one is best in a particular circumstance will vary based on setup. Even with the same setup they end up very close. [And from a raid standpoint you could run one of each to get the benefits of both, assuming you know we actually could pick and choose and have all the toons of all the classes we wanted in raids lol] From a different note I also find it very telling that almost every dps can tell me why they would want a zerker, mystic, fury, coe, and troub/dirge depending on scout/mage but very few can tell me anything any other tank does for their dps lol.
Yeah if your healers can pull dps close to half of chanters/tanks then it's a different story. We don't have any healers that can pull out those kind of dps numbers, which goes back to my comment on setup. Our healers basically consisently pass gear, and we aren't running a bunch of mystic furies because we don't have them, so our healers are lower on stats and cb overcap pieces so not getting anywhere near 750 billion on dps yet. If you are running more fighters you would also see more out of the fervor, which once again goes back to setup.
I literally showed you the math. I gave you 6 T1 mages doing 12T dps. There arent enough buffs in a raid for that, but I gave it to you. I nerfed what the pally was giving. I nerfed the impact it had on their groups/raid. It still comes out ahead in an ideal world. If you're balancing classes based on YOUR limited perspective, you're doing a disservice to the community. There's absolutely no reason to balance against an average when optimal performance is available. Balance there and let the rest of the world sort itself out so things are truly equal rather than some hypothetical, magical wonderland in that priests cant dps, all dps are mages, and your available buff pool is magically inflated.
I'm not in a magical wonder land, plenty of raid forces don't have mystic fury for every group. Plenty of raid forces only have 2 tanks. Plenty of raid forces have mages that combined do quadruple the dps of all the healers+tanks combined[which is how you compare who benefits the most from the amounts of fervor - oh and that's ignoring that the spell fervor would also impact some of the priests anyways(priest that get most their dps from spells would get about 30% of the increase they get from 67 fervor with 20 spell fervor)]. I'm looking based on what I see out in the world, not just at a perfectly setup raid force. I never said priest can't dps or we should look where all dps are mages, I'm looking with 3 mage dps would get more benefit than the limited dps from our priests get with that fervor. This isn't a one off situation, there are plenty of raid forces out there where a few mages do significantly more dps than healers and tanks. If you only look at a perfect raid-force, then that's not balanced for the majority of players. Most raid forces are not running the perfect set-ups. Balance should come somewhere in the middle so things are good for the majority of players not just the ones with all the best setups(though proper balance should transfer there too). There are much much bigger discrepancies out there to address than between two classes that are played relatively equally and come out close to the same with variance depending on your setup.
I want you to re read what you just typed. You're claiming balance because of how your raid performs. You're not basing it on math, logic, or any semblance of rational evaluation. You're taking what you see as face value and applying it unceremoniously to everything around you. There's a word for that. I'll let you ponder it.
I have shared plenty of math that shows SKs versus pallies being relatively equal in the amount of dps they give to a group or raid. Just because your particular setup pushes the edge to pallies does not make that true for every setup. I've talked to multiple people who get annoyed with everyone having conversations as though every raid is running only mystics and furies for healing in every gorup because not every raid has those. Just because you only care about the perfect setup does not mean everyone else has to care only about the perfect setup. There is nothing wrong with bringing some more average setups to look at and compare to, instead of basing everything off of your guilds perfect setup.
I gave your SK scenario the perfect setup. I gave you buffs that don't exist. I multiplied buffs that can't be multiplied in this hypothetical 6 mage T1 raid setup. I gave your mage T1s full benefit of the 20 effectiveness. I discounted the pally damage. You're the one discounting the affect of an additonal 67 fervor on priests and fighters and the benefit amount of damage that Divine Inspiration adds to a group in any situation you can imagine, here's the kicker, because they're identical buffs in terms of proc rate and affected number of targets. You've done absolutely zero work. You've shown no math. You've only used made up situations to claim what you "Feel" is the correct answer.
Another fun time, math fact. 20 effectiveness divided by 1600 is less than one quarter of 67/1200. But hey, it's just math. It's not universal.
Well, while you're busy working the math angle, why don't you do a search and look at the number of SKs being rolled up and/or playing in raids vs. zerkers. In the last 3 years. In different raid groups or people grouping, zerkers are nonexistent. Perfect setup doesn't mean anything, it's what you have to work with that makes all the difference. And since you started the thread, the one thing that makes zero sense to me in this game in that tanks can outparse healers in HPS. You talk about a dream world that doesn't make sense, haha. In raid, that ability is totally suppressed. And something that doesn't make sense to me is why the new special spell for summoners is the ability to cast six shards/hearts rather than 3. Let's see, tanks can now outparse healers with their special spell and summoners biggie was increasing their shard count from 3 to 6. Yeah, baby, let's all clap for class balances and what makes sense.
First of all, no tank is outhealing a healer in raids except maybe a Pally, lmao, the irony. Second, Zhev chose to focus todays discussion on Pally vs SK. Unfortunately for her, I'm fairly well versed in both. Over the course of 15 years or so of having played primarily an SK. I've always looked at both classes in beta and after major overhauls and evaluated which was better. There were several months in Chaos Descending when I was a Pally. I was a Pally for most of VoV. It was, and is, the better class. By leaps and bounds. I remember struggling to tank 2 of the end bosses in Mahngavi Wastes last year during progression as an SK. One of the most stressful things I'd attempted to tank with a solo healing Fury. I betrayed to Pally with zero upgrades for the next zone, tanked 3, and just smiled because I didn't even have to temp. Agro was exponentially easier, our wiz, ranger, and swash could go all out on whatever they felt like hitting and it just stayed locked to me. Damage wasn't that far off from the SK either. Folks that want to balance for the majority of the population are creating massive imbalances at the top end where the balance should be calculated. It's like saying you should build a supercar based on toyota corolla metrics. They're 2 completely different aspects of car building. The Corolla will never be a supercar. The supercar could absolutely be a dud if it's built like a Corolla.
I gave numbers for what divine inspiration does. I gave numbers for pally dps and used your claim of 30% more dps for SK. I am not making claims based on what I feel. You are seeing different numbers from a spell giving you more out of it great. I am not discounting what 67 fervor for priests do, but the reality is for most raid forces there priests are not doing 750 billion dps. I get in perfect setup raid forces with the right priests they can, but that's not what most guilds are working with. I've even been being nice and letting you have the SKs only do 30% more dps claim. When they can do much more. Another fun time, I was comparing 20 to 67. 20 fervor is 30% of 67 fervor. I do not know why we are comparing 20/1600 to 67/1200. You are assuming mages have 400 more fervor than priests[I am usually over 1200 fervor in raids on a priest, most our mages are regularly capping below 1600]. With perfect buffs maybe. But even if we give those numbers it then becomes 1% to 5%. Let's say I have 2 tanks both doing 1.5 trillion on the high end. I round all 5-6 priests up to 400 bil for 2-2.4 tril. So 5-5.4 for priests+tanks. Our mages average over 4.5 tril on most T2s. So 3 of them is 13.5. Add in the chanters who can do, 1.5 tril each and say you have 4 of them. 19.5 tril now. Remember priest will also benefit from the spell fervor, but we'll ignore that for now If you took your mages to all have. By rounding up on tank+priest damage and down on mage damage we only have 4x the damage, where given your fervor numbers we need 5x for it to be equal. So we get a tiny bit more out of the pally fervor if we round in favor of the pally fervor doing more Let's say its a full 2.5% of the priest+tank dps more. That's 125 billion. The numbers on the group buff are 3x different, so since they have the same proc rate that'll be the difference. Let's round way up from what I'm seeing and say its 100 billion a group mate for the pally version and 33 billion for sk. Thats 402 billion for the pally Now 30% of the 1.5 billion the pally is doing is 450 billion. So if we round down the DPS increase SK has over pally and round up the pallies benefits we end up with pallies adding 44 billion more dps raidwide than SKs[402+125-450-33]. Giving everything in your favor, the difference still comes out so small compared to raidwide dps. Let's round raidwide dps down to 25 trillion. We get a 0.176% increase to raidwide dps from pally over SK, running everything in favor of pallies dps increase being higher. Now if you are doing 35% more dps than a pally on an sk, which is totally and completely reasonable to do, SKs get a 31 billion raidwide damage increase over pallies[1.5*.35=525 billon; 525+33-402-125=31], which is still peanuts. This is still low compared to potential SK dps. You are not going to get closer than less than 1% difference on raidwide parse increase between 2 classes.
Yep, and the SK ward can still out heal healers in some content. [Though the issue with the crusader ward, once wards were uncapped to allow it to out heal healers, is that overall damage is low on a lot of things - there's content where I heal on a healer over 10 billion without even trying and thats a low number; most content heal parses are under 1 billion. We would need higher consistent damage to bring healer parses compared to that ward back up, but doing that without significantly raising health pools would most likely create a situation where non ward healers suck] A few weeks ago when I ran numbers for people at T1 raid/h3 resolve there were 23 zerkers, compared to 27 SKs and 27 Pallies - getting numbers from who is actually raiding is a little harder. DPS do want zerkers in their group this xpac for their cb buff thing, so that helps. I would love to see more being done to help the classes that there is legitimately zero reason to bring in a raid over another body[bruiser, guard, inq all make this list along with a few others], except it being the only body that you have.
