[p]Hmmm, there is an awful lot of whining here about the monk and his raiding abilities. I have a raiding monk. He is in full fabled left side with marrs fist and fists of pain as weapons. He is tank specced as far as AA's go.[/p][p]On raids monks are amazing off tanks. We can grab agro if the MT loses agro and a mob gets lose in the raid. We can pop tsunami, fire off a few taunts and that should give us enough time to switch from DPS to tank mode and give a shout to the raid that we have a mob on us. If the raid responds then we can tank these mobs till they die with no problem whatsover.[/p][p]We can fire a 50% heal onto the MT if the healers are struggling to keep him up. We can then also rescue the mob from the MT and offtank him again by using tsunami, we can then FD when we get low on health and have the MT take control again. This is a brilliant ability for a monk to save wipes on raids.[/p][p]We can also pop traps in HoS and DT, pull mobs generally for the raid. Incidentally my parse even as a tank specced monk and even when I'm not placed in a proper DPS raid group is around 1000 dps. If I get a dirge or a coercor I am over 1400 constantly none of the other fighters can consistantly better that other than the guild bruiser.[/p][p]Monks have many things to bring to a raid, it seems to me that the people moaning about their monk either have guilds that don't understand what a monk can do or they don't understand what their own monk can do.[/p][p]Yes we have problems but they are nothing like as bad as some people here are making them out to be. Put some effort into your gear and get some adorns and a monk is a very viable raiding class to a raid leader that knows how to utilise them.[/p]
[p]"FD is not a strategy, FD is a "Oh Sheet" spell, like evac"[/p][p]What a lot of nonsene that is. OFC FD is a strategy, it used to be a prime strategy to beat the 2nd named in FTH. Besides I wasn't describing a strategy, I was describing a technique. Also since when did you consider FD training to the bottom of SoS to farm nameds as an "Oh sheet" spell? Seems you have no clue what FD is for if you think it's an "Oh Sheet" spell.[/p][p]"...or you don't know raids"[/p][p]Of course I don't only having been MT for a top raiding guild with my zerk and MA/puller/Offtank for another with my monk. If you have nothing constructive to say you should just hush up.[/p]
[p]- When you do shout but healers are busy you are dead, or you fd and a squishy is dead. If you are getting heals then you can live but if its a long named fight then you take a ton of damage and the healers are spending so much power on you that they run out and have nothing left or are harrassing the summoner so much for hearts/shards that the summoners aren't doing the most they can[/p][p]- The heal is a nice raid saver, but wow, with hate transfers and a warrior's taunts even my rescue doesn't usually grab the mob from the MT (and yes I use taunts throughout and they are mastered). [/p][p]- I don't know about anyone else but I haven't had to trigger a trap in a long time. My Guardian is perfectly capable of running over it, taking the damage and getting healed.[/p][p] -1000-1400 dps isn't enough, even if you do all of the above every fight, to validate a monks spot in a raid[/p][p]I raid all the time with my monk, but sometimes I know that if I sat and we brought that extra dps the raid would have gone better. I don't think we are "broke" as everyone says but we could definitely use some help to make us more useful/wanted/needed in a raid. I love my monk and I will never claim another as a main but I will bench him when he is useless for a raid.[/p][p]- are we dps or are tanks? because right now we are neither [/p]
It's not so much useless.. it's inefficient. And for min/maxing power raiders, inefficiency equates to uselessness. And FD is technically an ability that AVOIDS combat, not defeats it. If your goal is to avoid combat all the way to a destination, then kudos. Other than training and the ONE epic fight that CAN use it (I've yet to be on a raid that sees it work, there are other tactics that can be done), there's not really anything it does to make us better DPS or Tanks or Utility. It's like saying a scout's pathfinding is why they take them on a raid... Making Deflection uncontested for it's full amount won't break solo or group play.. and it basically makes us better at raid tanking. Is there really any problems out there with making it so we are a bit better at tanking epics? How about aggro control? Procing a taunt on deflection and parry? Got a problem with giving us a little bit more group aggro control? Why would it be a problem?
Many, many classes out there have tricks that make them better at farming than others. This game wasn't built around farming, and it shouldn't be. So Brawlers give up raid role efficiency because they can farm? Also, I think you put way too much stock with Feign Death. Please.. explain how a raid can't ever do without it on the majority of raids. Really, I'd like to know how taking myself completely out of the combat every 10 seconds brings so much more utility than say.. a few people who already have FD in another form, or a tinkered FD item. I rolled my Bruiser (yes, bruiser.. but we're talking about Brawlers here so I think it's valid), back when the game first came out. You can check my toon if you want (it's right in my name, Kaisoku on Mistmoore). I've played this game back when we started out as Fighter, and ran around with Round Shields for protection. The devs advertised the Brawler class as a Fighter that tanks as good as the others, just differently. NOT LESS... DIFFERENT. So yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume I was going to be a valid option for tanking ALL game content. If you don't want to be a raid MT, that's fine. And I think even if we were on an equal footing, the ancient spells that some classes get would still make others "preferred" MT's. However, that shouldn't mean we get the short end of the stick. They took away our Round shield and gave us Deflection instead. Then they boosted it so we could be called "avoidance tanks".. hence why we have less mitigation. Then KoS rolls around and avoidance is screwed with Epics. So they make shields uncontested. Our "Shield" (deflection) wasn't even slated to be changed. Then they give us 16%... lower than the potential "uncontested avoidance" that non-avoidance tanks can get. If we give up Mitigation for our Avoidance, we should have more uncontested avoidance. Simple as that. I've yet to hear a valid reason why we SHOULDN'T have the changes I proposed. All I've heard is bull answers like "we won't ever be raid mt's" or "just deal with it". Those responses are just saying "ignore the issue"... they are not reasons why the changes shouldn't be made. What exactly would it hurt if we had better avoidance against epics and aggro control?
Being the OMG its an emergency person is fine and dandy until your guild figures out how to do things without any hiccups. Then where does that leave you. As for being an off-tank doing 1k-1.4k dps just bring in a zerker who will trump you in both damage and tanking ability without breaking a sweat. Kaoru Monk Blackburrow
aonoch talks as if his guild really likes him. cool. you are in a raiding guild. your ppl like you and they pat you on the back and tell you 'gj' all the time. what about the other monks who aren't in a raid guild ? how are they gonna sell themselves ? as a dps class ? as if. a tank ? i don't care how well you can tank there will always be a plate tank there to tank. oh, you don't need a monk to trigger traps in hos. you could send a wiz to do it and he could do just as well.
[p]Haha, non raiding monks aren't broken in this game in the slightest. Any decent monk can tank any instance in this game. If you can't it's because you don't know how to play your class.[/p][p]There is a substantial amount of moaning done on these boards by people who obviously just haven't worked out how to do some of the things they are asking the devs to "provide solutions" for. Look at the tools/skills you have and adapt your gaming to suit.[/p][p]To Kaisoku - Oh yeah and I don't think that FD is a farming tool or that the game should be built around it. It's a nice utility to have though and if you haven't worked out what it's really for yet than that's your loss.[/p][p]Also you can't just give brawlers the ability to tank raid epic mobs. Brawlers aren't the only class in the game. If you wanted to be a raid tank then you should have rolled a guardian or a berserker. Unfortunately the devs ahve to keep the game balanced. Tricky job that, all things considered.[/p]
Sigh, another non-brawler saying brawlers are ok. Any decent rogue can tank any instance in this game. And most plate tanks that aren't even decent by your definition of it can. And as said, 'If you wanted to be a raid tank then you should have rolled a guardian or a berserker' is a BS statement. It might be true, but in now way does it justify the lack of improvements for brawlers. I'd say anyone stating that kind of crap should be picked up to have their own toon single target nerfed to hell.
[p]Haha, I have a 70/100 raiding monk, 70/100 raiding fury, 70/73 raiding zerker and a 69/55 conj. So please don't come on here spouting nonsense about me not knowing what I'm talking about. Go look up Sambrokyl on EQ2players, I'm not uber but i can do most things on here with my monk that people are moaning at devs to "sort".[/p][p]At no time did I say it wasn't ok to ask for improvements for brawlers but to ask them to be able to do a Guardian or zerkers job is just childish.[/p][p]Incidentally I've been on a raid on my server where a brawler tanked FTH. Just for the record. [/p]
i love it when ppl say you should have rolled a guardian or berzerker if you wanted to tank. where did it say in the archetype description that guardian/zerker were gonna be raid tanks ? where was this stated pre launch ? your statement is just ignorant. that's like telling dps class A that if they wanted to dps they should have rolled dps class B. how would they have known they were gonna get the shaft. no question mark. rhetorical question.
[p] I didn't say that. I said if you wanted to be a raid tank. If you are gonna blurt out accusations you should at least try to get your facts right. If you thought at any time that brawlers were going to tbe the raid tanks of choice then you have obviously never played EQ1 or have any concept about plate v leather tanking.[/p][p]I will say it again because you point blank refuse to listen. I have been on a raid where a brawler tanked FTH. I bet it wasn't easy for him or the healers but he did it. It's not "impossible" for brawlers to do it its jsut there are better classes for it available.[/p][p]These arguements about "I'm a tank so I should be able to tank every single thing in the game as well as a guardian is just garbage" Of course we shouldn't be able to tank what a guardian can tank. It's their primary role in the game, if you didn't "know" that then you are just being naive.[/p]
i assumed guardians would be the choice tanks for most content in the game. i'm not trying to be a leather wearing guardian. it was stated a long time ago that different tanks would be better in different situations. where's my situation ? if guardians have tanking so locked down, why do they have group buffs locked down too ? and don't come at me with your FTH tanking stories. i've tanked it. tried the whole FD prone to corruption business. ya that's disease based. i'm not asking to be the tank supreme, and i doubt anyone else here is.
This is what I said: I've yet to hear a valid reason why we SHOULDN'T have the changes I proposed. All I've heard is bull answers like "we won't ever be raid mt's" or "just deal with it". Those responses are just saying "ignore the issue"... they are not reasons why the changes shouldn't be made. What exactly would it hurt if we had better avoidance against epics and aggro control? Still no answer to that. Still just BS like "You shoulda picked a different class". Except that Brawlers used to be capable MT's. Not the best, as there were other tricks other tanks could do. But with the changes to +skill being so much more important, and the changes to avoidance being worked against us... our efficiency at being MT (withstanding blows and holding aggro) has dropped dramatically. And the ability to drop aggro and effectively take ourselves out of combat does nothing for a MT position. Yes, there's one or two situations in a raid that it could be useful. Sorry, I don't have group FD either, I'm a Bruiser, so maybe FD has a slight extra advantage at utility for you. But it's not the be-all ability for raiding. It's a passover ability that isn't required in the slightest, and many others can bring a version of it that is good enough for the situations it calls for (with the one exception of the named in FTH, but even that isn't a mandatory tactic.. try having a decent OT and higher raid DPS). Yes, FD is fun, it's great.. but it's not the reason we should have lost the ability to tank in raids.
Maybe you missed the hundreds of posts that we have in several different threads explaining the Brawler's problems. I'm sure that rogues can tank FTH too. "just there are better classes for it available." That is our argument. Maybe you should read through a few hundred posts and get caught up with things. There are ALWAYS better classes out there in every case. There are much better classes for tanking. There are much better classes for DPS. There are much better classes for utility. And while they are tanking they out DPS us or at least come within 100 - 200 DPS all the while being much superior tanks. So please refrain from coming in here and telling us how well you tank in your KoS relic gear and trying to justify a position in Raids for our class that always has several other classes that can do everything better than us. Oh wait, we are the best at FD ! WOOOOOOOOPEEEEEEE !
