[p]OK I am not a happy camper in this....[/p][p]I was more or less depending on the Devs following their regular ignorance of the monk class and makeing the changes as planned, despite the river that was cried on the forums.[/p][p]The closed mindedness of the bulk of the monk community has yet again kept us from being a truely viable raid class.[/p][p]Look, Monks will never be the choice for raid tank, its simply this, even increases in MIT via AA will never bring our MIT high enough to truely tank Epics, Epics get a to hit bonus so Avoid tanking is useless, and non of our stuns/stiffle/dazes effect epics in anyway.[/p][p]The only saveing grace we raid monks had was DPS and Monk heal, which comes in insanely useful when first pulling a mob while debuffs come up.[/p][p]The proposed changes in the Brawler tree would have given the Monk class excellent burst damage.[/p][p]Before the changes I decided to try out a different AA spec, diverting from the unarmed line to pick up Crane Flock, and use weapons.[/p][p]With a Dirge and Shaman in group I would parse a min of 1800 with Caco, and as high as a little over 2100. That was JUST Crane Flock.[/p][p]This wasnt with slacker DPS in raid either, our guild averages 20k DPS.[/p][p]Couple that with the .75% rise in combat arts, and the ditch of the negative effects or Chi, this would have made us a viable DPS class for raids.[/p][p]Imagine just for a sec, Dispatch, Cacophony of blades, Chi, and Crane Flock at one time. For 16 Seconds we will Double attack our target 100%, and then single hit in AOE 100%, and then the other 14 seconds when Chi is running use our CA's.[/p][p]We WOULD have been competeing with Rangers on certain fights in DPS, meanwhile still comeing to the table with Monk heal.[/p][p]Monks will never be raid tanks, put it out of your mind, we dont have the MIT, we never will, what the Devs tried to do was give us a reason to be on raids, but the Hydrualic Engineers in the Monk community took it away.[/p][p]This change was an improvement, maybe not as drastic as some of you would want, and certainly not in the direction you wanted.[/p][p]BUT, it would have made the Monk a raidable class.[/p][p]Altho we can still pick up Chi and do this, we have to waste the entire STR tree to get to it, and have nothing to show for it aside from Chi itself.[/p][p]Instead of leaving the STR tree untouched they should have given us a 1.5% rise in CA damage per point. DPS is 50% of the only 2 factors we bring to a raid, and now we are just as gimped as before.[/p][p]So Props for the tear drops![/p][p] [/p][p]Seeloc Crazylegs"Jibrowski[/p][p]<Chimera>[/p][p]Lucan D"Lere[/p]
if monks consistently compete with rangers' dps we'll just get nerfed. monks were never meant to be a dps class.
Yea, I don't think there are many raid monks who are very happy with the changes. There are a few things like the reduced crane flock timer but all in all we got screwed. Although I do believe that aa changes alone are not going to fix the countless issues our class has, some serious work needs to be done. But really for me it's not even about that. It is the fact that in the testing feedback forums so many monks came together and put forward a ton of good ideas and showed just how much we all love the class and know how good we can be, and every single dev decided to slap us all in the face and flat out ignored everything that was posted. I have no idea who they got to test these changes (if anyone at all) but I seriously doubt they listened to them or that they even played a monk on a regular basis. Kaoru Monk Blackburrow
[p] Its not about consistantly competeing with them.[/p][p]Chi is our AA version of life tap, or mana burn.[/p][p]Last night in DT i used the above spec with Chi and Crane Flock.[/p][p]When i coupled them with Cacophony i was 2-3 hundred DPS behind the Rangers consistantly yes, but only while useing both.[/p][p]Every Class in this game brings something defineing to a raid force EXCEPT the Monk.[/p][p]You can try the arguement that we arent meant to be a DPS class, but thats all we actually are, I make the parse every fight im not passing out loot.[/p][p]Bruisers are the tank brawler, monks are the dps brawler, thats how its set up, so im looking at it that thats how the Devs have desighned it.[/p][p]What the Devs havent desighned into the game is the defined roll of the monk.[/p][p]We need something, at this point i dont care if its a copycat of some other classes ability, like another version of dispatch, or verdict, group stonesphere, group deagro, cacophony of blades, group ward, group HOT.[/p][p]The classes that are copied will become hydrualic engineers, of that im certain.[/p][p]To keep that from happening, the Devs simply needs to use their brain pans and come up with something NEW.[/p][p]But really, is it that hard to expand on one of the abilities that a monk already has to extend it to group wide use??[/p][p]Group Tsunami, group outward calm, group will of the heavens, AA intercede to absorb all attacks for group for one shot, if the Devs arent going to give us one single defineing roll, then they need to give us several things to bring to a raid force to make up for it.[/p][p]Seeloc[/p][p] [/p]
Kaoru@Blackburrow wrote: [p] On this note here.....[/p][p] [/p][p]If there is a dev reading this, I volunteer myself to to test changes to the monk class.[/p][p]Let me copy my toon to the test server and find a raid guild to take a chance on a monk.[/p][p]I know the Monk class very well, as im sure many others do.[/p][p]But it seems whoever you Devs do have testing the monk class isnt doing their job very well, because i have yet to meet a monk that is happy with the class.[/p][p]Seeloc[/p]
I'm a monk and am extremely happy with my class. But then, I don't raid. I believe that test copies of characters are only done for the PvP Test server, because the test server is an actual player community. If you make a monk on the test server, you do get a 50% experience bonus. Let your monk sit for a couple days between playing sessions and your vitality will build and you can level up very quickly. Items on the test server are sold on the broker for MUCH MUCH MUCH less than they sell on mainstream servers, so it's not difficult to outfit a character either. I have a monk and a mystic on the test server because I was most concerned with changes taking place with those classes and wanted to be able to make a difference. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of play time overall due to my job, my commute, and all the other hassles of real life...so I can't do *too* much there. But if you're really concerned, make a monk on Test...don't wait for the devs to permit you to copy your character over there, because it likely will not happen.
Seeloc@Lucan DLere wrote: uhh...no. We have no tools to tank that you do not, and you have one tool to tank (Tsunami, which is weaksauce) that we do not. Neither of us are tanking brawlers when it comes to raids, so we both need either better DPS or better utility to be worth bringing along.
Pipes@Najena wrote: [p]I spend far too much time playing my monk as it is to then turn around and create a new one on the test server..........[/p][p]I suspect that whoever is testing these changes on the test server is an alt and not a main and doesnt really care whether the monk class is useless on a raid or not.[/p][p]Yes i am concerned but i have a raid guild on my home server so i spend my time attending to my guild as a leader should...[/p][p] [/p][p]I could carve time to test changes, but not enough time to level one.[/p][p] [/p]
Cornbread Muffin wrote: [p] Nope, bruisers get a mit buff thats consumes health right along the lines of the monk haste.[/p][p]With better DPS, more mit, and better tanking ability, the bruiser is actually right now better than the monk class all around.[/p][p]Monks can compete barely if they know their class very well, but not in tanking, we get avoid AA's, and against epics they do nothing.[/p][p]Only thing we can really do is spec DPS, and try to compete.[/p]
[p]I agree that the monk is in worse shape than bruiser but that is because of DPS and not tanking ability. To borrow from South Park, arguing over the two is like choosing between a giant ****** and a turd sandwich.[/p][p]Bruiser has a mit buff that drains 2% of your health per tick in exchange for 762 mit as Master 1. Buffed with 12k HP that means my ability is doing 40 DPS to me in exchange for about 3% mitigation. That means the mob must be doing 1,333 DPS in physical damage to me just to break even. This ability is garbage and nobody uses it. I take that back...one time I used it to help keep my health low while trying to get some use out of our ****** Eagle Shriek AA.[/p][p]To actually see the 3% not go to waste by paying health costs for an ability designed to keep you from losing health the mob would have to be doing 2,666 physical DPS to me. Of course, I would be dead in 4.5 seconds but if I managed to stay up for, say, the 10 seconds you get Tsunami for I would mitigate almost 800 damage! Alright! Meanwhile, were I a Monk I could turn on Tsunami and mitigate 26,600 damage.[/p][p]Does Tsunami's ability to eat this much damage make you a quality tank? No, and neither does Vigorous Spirits for us. We are not the tanking brawler to your dps brawler. We both suck at tanking and we both suck at DPS.[/p]
Not to mention that Monks were originally supposed to be the defensive brawlers and Bruisers the offensive ones. But I don't care as long as we get to be SOMETHING soon.
Cornbread Muffin wrote: [p]OK my statement that bruisers are the tanks and monks are the dps is my opinion, however not the topic of this thread.[/p][p]instead of looking for an arguement by picking out one thing you disagree with me about, why not state the particulars you agree about and go from there.[/p][p]What your doing is not helpful in any way to either the monk class or the bruiser class.[/p][p]If you are unhappy about the way the current changes has effected the bruiser class id suggest you post in the bruiser class boards as i have done in the monk class boards if you have not done so already.[/p][p]Dont tell me the changes were made to brawlers, the changes that were made effect the classes in much different ways.[/p][p]Seeloc [/p]
[p]We're both fighters/tanks. There is essentially zero disparity in defense between the two classes atm. The bruiser health burn mit buff is just as useless for tanking as the monk health burn haste thanks to the diminishing returns on the mit curve as explained above. I could choose two relative class abilities at random and argue the other way. Take our hate procs - the monk one is pure threat while the bruiser one is threat/damage. Through AAs, monks can boost their rooting mit buff, the recast on tsunami and outward calm, gain additional avoidance which is useful when your raid force knows what it is doing, etc...[/p][p]I am not saying we don't need some attention, but as far as one being 'designed' as a tank and the other being 'designed' as dps, that is rubbish. We're both designed as avoidance tanks, who, like all tanks (warriors, crusaders, brawlers), can take offensive AA abilities and pump out respectable dps if they choose. [/p][p]The reason we have difficulty performing our primary role in the raid setting is that the a developer has decided that avoidance tanks should not get the highest uncontested avoidance. The notion of uncontested avodiance was introduced with KoS, which, not surprisingly, was when brawler raid tank ability went from viable to swirling in the toilet bowl. Since then, we have gone from 0 uncontested to about 12% uncontested after two updates aimed at fixing brawlers. This has improved our lot, but plate tanks with the warrior buckler line or a tower shield still have much more uncontested avoidance than brawlers do. It makes no sense that the kings of avodiance arbitrarily have the lowest avoidance in one setting. It is very frustrating that this one key flawed mechanic hamstrings us so badly. Before uncontested avoid was introduced, a good brawler had 75ish% avoid and 50ish% mit. A good plater had 50ish% avoid and 75ish% mit. Shockingly, we tanked about equally back then. I don't get why seeing a balance like this restored has been so elusive [/p]
Seeloc@Lucan DLere wrote: [p]I didn't post here looking for an argument, I posted here to correct the statement that Bruisers are designed to be the tanking brawler. That is helpful to the bruiser class, because the last thing we need is some dev rolling in here (yeah, I know, they don't really read the brawler forums) and taking that to heart.[/p][p]The changes that were made do not have appreciably different effects on the two brawler classes. The changes (well, the proposed ones before it was taken back) were extremely minor and would have had similar effects on both classes, though the effects would have been slightly less for monks because your autoattack damage is a slightly higher proportion of your total damage than it is for Bruisers. [/p][p]As for the rest of your post, I don't think that the .75% CA damage boost would have made the STR line useful as Chi itself is not particularly useful. Good DPS every 15 minutes is not a good reason to bring a monk on a raid when I can get even better DPS every fight from 8 other classes. What both Monks are bruisers need is an overall DPS increase in addition to added utility. I'm as miffed as you are that the changes were reversed but I'm hoping that the reversal will end up in another change that is superior to the original proposal. [/p]
[p]Well the changes in KOS that effected the avoid tanking was suppossed to be a normalazation.[/p][p]It did not have that effect however.[/p][p]What they did i believe was give the deminishing returns a soft cap of 63%, i could be wrong on that number i havent actually tested it.[/p][p]after 63% of mit or avoid it stops being worthwhile to add more of each.[/p][p]On this tho and what makes plate tanks so much more effective in tanking epics is that they can get their mit way beyond 63% and come closer to 63% avoid than Brawlers can the reverse.[/p][p]Keeping my avoid at 63.6%[/p][p]I can get my mit to 52.2%[/p][p]I would be higher in avoid however i am not speced for tanking, im speced for dps.[/p][p]Our MT get his to [/p][p]Mit 61%[/p][p]Avoid 53.8%[/p][p]Getting these numbers from our MT really confusees me actually, because they are very comparable in the reverse, which really only leaves the to hit bonus the epics get as the culprit for being a lousy tank for epics.[/p][p]All in all id rather see us get some sort of defineing roll on raids, as was the case in eq1.[/p][p] [/p]
[p]Your MT's avoidance is worth more than yours due to block being uncontested and our only uncontested avoid coming from our defensive stance. Hell, your MT's avoidance in offensive stance is better than yours in defensive.[/p]
i have to agree, monks do need more looking into. monks are not good fro raids besides just for little damage. i would like to see them get buffed up more.
Indeed. I've raided quite alot lately whiht my monk and i've noticed that our dps realy isn't that good, SKs and zerkers can parse almost as much as us AND they can tank properly. I'm happy whith the canges of the wis line though as this makes us able to get atleast some aoe aggro in groups, but in raids we're stil very far down. Looking at the EoF raid drops, it looks like there are some realy nice items that helps us tank, does that mean that's what soe wants us to do? I dont think i'll ever see a guild doing eof zones whith a tank specced brawler. And the str line, i dont realy like it becoes you can't realy combo it whith anything except a few lines, and many of us want to keep our weapons. I agree whith Seeloc, devs realy need to find the place for us. Being the person always being able to FD isn't enough.
[p]Barring verbal profanity, I'm not impressed with the vomit the development team submitted to brawlers for their new AA changes. My monk is mothballed until I see new revamps for us.[/p][p]Regards,[/p][p]Bewts[/p]
[p]I posted this in the Bruiser forum but it's meant for Monks just as much...[/p][p] [/p][p]Our Deflection REALLY should be uncontested to the full amount, just like shields. Someone out there forgot that Deflection IS our shield. Our crappy aggro control is made up by the fact that we can use the full shield along with a 2hander or dual wields... but it's no reason to limit the shield itself.[/p][p]Healers are already capable of healing Brawlers against raid targets.. I've personally experienced it. This change would simply make it so we'd have that extra oomph to make us a better choice over someone like... a Rogue.[/p][p] The real reason we suck at Epic tanking is because we can't hold aggro against multi targets. I would far prefer seeing our taunt proc reduced, but kept, on single target attack, but then an added taunt whenever we deflect or parry an attack. Combined with some AA's and the above uncontested change, this could drastically change our aggro holding capability.[/p][p] Those two changes could put us on a more level footing. Base tanking ability (withstanding attacks and holding aggro) would be close enough that it's only the tricks that make some preferred tanks (ToS and Reinforcement for Guardians, etc). But it would mean that if a guild didn't have a steady Guardian or Zerker for MT, they could rely on a Brawler without shooting themselves in the foot.[/p]
