The biggest problem with the ranger class is that we are the only class that are not allwoed by devs to do our job namely T1 dps. We are the only DPS class with a dmg penalty and because of that, as Neiloch said before, our AA isnt that big plus anymore. Secondary i started raiding in KOS so i can't speak for DOF. But i know in EOF we had a better tree than assasins and the only time my class was actually fun to play and needed in raids , especially with the rigid scale bow. Without going into any details of this so called leaked "info"and judging by the STATUS Quo of the info , there are two points i want to point at. First all endline abilities in the new KOS tree benefits assasins MORE!!! than ranger. Secondary the endline ability in EOF tells you whats wrong with our class. Devs didnt come up with something new so they " copy and paste" the TSO Endline ability and change the dot/proc only. With changes to Stream of Arrows, was said before Beta so no NDA break here, it seems devs cannot come up with something new and inventive so they make us what an AE DPS class? When i spoke to ranger i know, they said assasins do up to 10k dps more with the new trees and have utility in form of the hate -transfer. Since im not in beta, i hope the guys who are in BETA and know the class can convince xelgad & co to come up with better Endline abilities and give us something new, raid desireability and worthwhile.
Noob1974 wrote: I know rangers have problems but first of all the stat consolidation will help considerably. Second the "leaked" beta achivements are not worth paying any attention too since as kiara said... Kiara wrote: The stuff on beta most likely chages pretty often and speculating on incorrect information doesn't help.
Lethe5683 wrote: It has changed and it still sucks. I have spoken with some rangers that know and most (that raid) are considering betraying. But hey if you want to set yourself up for disappointment go ahead. I have learned my lesson.
Ranja wrote: Oh hell no I don't play a ranger. I come here, because frankly I find it fascinating how much rangers seem to whine. You have not been crapped upon more than any other class, yet you complain more than any other has since the beginning. Heck, you've probably complained as much as all the rest combined. Like I said, i find it fascinating. The uniqueness of the class (the fact that you are the only ranged class, not a caster and not a melee) is where the problem has come from I think. You didn't have anything valid to compare yourself to. Now that it looks like that is going away (unless I miss my guess they are going to basically consider you a melee class now), I'm interested to see if the whining continues. I'll add that all of the whining has not been baseless, far from it. All classes have had legitimate gripes. And I think the change, if I'm right about it, is long overdue, if for no other reason than I'm tired of seeing gear being made for one class that almost nobody plays.
-=Hoss=- wrote: Everyone complains about their class unless you play ez-mode assassin I think it is kinda pathetic that you need to troll our another classes board and make unknowledgeable sweeping comments about another class you have never played. Brawlers get the shaft more than we do as have summoners, but I don't play those classes so I don't give a #$%^. The problem is we have our counterpart class (assassin) that seems to get buffed each and every expansion with great CAs and new tricks while we get hawk dive and coverage. At least with Brawlers it is both monks and bruisers getting screwed and with summoners it is both necros and conjys.
@Lethe5683 Stat consolidation will help how ? It does not give us the dps to compare with assasins not to mention wizzies. I have spoken to ranger and everyone says the gap is no larger than ever be tween the two predators. Secondary we bring not a single useful utlity to raid i how is that changed through stat con solidation ? @Hoss I'm no one that whines but i have to make decision wether or not i want to buy an expansion in which my class is far behind that whats needed for raid. The flavour when talking with ranger in foren and such either betray,delete or play your dirge alt. Since betraying is out question i have to look is it worth playing a ranger in T9 .......
I've said this before, if they end up gimping rangers significantly and it stays that way for a few months I'll just outright quit and never look back, even if they 'fix' rangers a year later. And that's still pretty stubborn of me since others have already quit or switched well before SF beta. This was touched on but the reason why rangers might 'whine more' is because our counterpart is the most OP DPS class in the game while we are the most underpowered. The contrast in DPS/utility between a ranger and assassin is by the far the biggest gap in the game when dealing with classes (summoners, brawlers, warriors, rogues etc). If such things were tracked ranger betraying to assassin would at least be in the top 5 if not #1. They have been told repeatedly exactly how to fix us, in a nut shell its 'increase ranger CA damage.' That is to say make our CA damage more in line with assassins. Another ancillary problem being new bows don't get put in when new 1handers are to keep our auto attack DPS up to par. Even if they don't see it as a fix (which would be really ignorant of them) it would appease the ranger community so I don't see how it could be bad.
I think we're at a point where a dev should at least tell us what their reason is for not raising our dps to where it should be. I know they hate commenting on class issues because it has a way of being quoted forever after they post something, but thousands of posts from rangers saying something is wrong and them ignoring it isn't going to make it go away. I think it is really upsetting to see replies from them on plenty of other tiny little things in the game but they have yet to step up and give us one single reason why nothing has been done for our class.
Ranja wrote: I don't know how you would know that unless you are in beta in which case you are breaking the NDA by saying that. Ranja wrote: Not really since bruisers and monks are basically the same class, it's more comparing monks to plate tanks. Noob1974 wrote: I never said anything about class consolidation. Stat consolidation though will help rangers with things like the devs tendancy for putting significantly more melee DA than ranged DA on equiopment/buffs that are supposed to be equal for both classes. I'm not saying this will fix rangers, far from it, but at least it will help a good amount. akaglty wrote: As far as I've seen the closest to a reason the devs have given is because rangers can do DPS from a range... which is stupid since to do competitive DPS they have to melee as well. The only times that this is a significant boon is in fighters were everyone must stay ranged for large portions of the fight. I could see rangers maybe having *slightly* less DPS than assassins since assassins have more positional attacks and can't do much from a range but this would only be the case if rangers also had just as much utility as an assassin but as is they have no utility worth mentioning. Another reason for the lack of dev replies is, I believe, for classes like rangers, bawlers and summoners which are not "typical" compared to the other members of their archetype is that they really don't know how to fix them because they don't have the experiance and do not listen very well to knowledgable players.
Ahhh, Why not at least DPS equal to an assassin? Even if were equal the assassin would get the invite to a group or to the right group in a raid because they have utility. Muderous Design get's them in a slot with groups that have the right buffs. What do you as a Ranger offer? Hawk is useless, FA is undervalued, so we offer what? DPS, and with the setups we do get it is DPS behind, Assassin, Wizard and Warlock. We are the only ranged/melee dps class. Kind of a hybrid between mage and melee. We are both and neither, for optimal DPS we need to be outside of melee autoattack range. Primary and mainhand procs do us no good. Assassins, Warlocks and Wzards can stand right on the mob and DPS they don't suffer minimum range on the majority of thier DPS.... do they? I do not want to be a utility class, rolled ranger to be DPS ..... whoops! Itemization including all crit into 1 is not going to be a great help for raiding rangers. My RCrit solo is 95% and ~56%on RDble. We have a coefficeint on RDbl that they have already said will remain. WHich tells me they have no intention of moving Rangers back into T1. Hell we should be the TOP T1 we have no other viable thing to bring except for DPS. Hawk never hits, so never siphons hate. We, at least I am generally in a group with 1 other melee DPS so that FA means nothing also. This equals zero utility. Everyone agrees that out of Wizard, Warlock, Ranger and Assassin Ranger comes in last in DPS potential. Yet we also have the least amount of utility. I have to max my gear, temp adorns and beg for a group every time just to stay in the top 6 DPS of a raid. Rangers are great at utilizing buffs, but there is nothing that recommends us for the groups that have the buffs we need. I am not going to get put in the OT group with the dirge and coercer over the Assassin because the Assassin has Murderous Design, 19% hate transfer. I cannot get in the mage group because I add nothing to thier DPS FA does nothnig for Spell Damage. So I miss the troub and Coercer in there. That leaves me in the 'utility' groups with summoners and brawlers whom my buffs don't help. Truthfully I think they would rather have an assassin or swashy there too to help the brawler with aggro when needed. Also if they are combining crits why not combine the AA crits on Str and Agi? We self buff haste as rangers Hunters Instinct +49 Attack Speed, Assassins Villainy DPS +78 DPS (Mmmmm which is better). We take Agi primarily for the Ranged Expertise Rcrit. We take str for perfectionist. Spending aa in precision of blades provides no discernable inprovement in DPS. Our melee CA's are not powerful and we never Melee aa. Replace which ever one is not combined with a range specific aa like Rdbl or DPS. Make Hawk provide aoe protectiion for utility (may get us in the mage group) Fix SoA remove the stun, stifle, root or at least the stun Stifle. Change FA to benefit something other than melee because we don't get melee groups, and melee does not help us do anything. They could fix quite a bit by being able to treat our bow as mainhand or primary weapon it is not right now. Try getting it to proc main or primary procs or adorns as specified on primary or secondary items. I got it fixed though I pre-ordered it for pickup at Best-Buy, if on release a good deal of this is not addressed I can take it back the same day I pickit up. I won't even have to open the box. My subscription is good till july. Hoss, get a clue rangers don't melee, period. We have 1 ca that hits for more than our autoattack sniper arrow, Take a look at the Predator tree in that light. Moderator: Please can you also remove the "/ignore ranger" flag in the developer channel?
Ranja wrote: I think you are confused. Rangrs are EZmode assassins, AKA AFK Assassins, and as I said, you guys seem to complain more. But we all care about our class and our raid. akaglty wrote: I haven't heard this for a while, but I'd be willing to bet the answer will still be something along the lines of "We have worldwide parses at our disposal and they tell us that the classes are pretty close" I think it was around EOF when I heard that from a dev. Toball Tokor wrote: Everyone also agrees that assassins are 3rd on that list. I mean, you're trying to make out like the predators are 1 and 4. I've read from good rangers who say you are a fool if you don't use your melee CAs. So I don't know who to believe, rangers that can outparse me, or you. Lemme think about that for a while. I liked the last line, gave me a chuckle. But probably not for the reason you think it did.
Both are quite easy if you know the tips/tricks. Assassin is knowing how to use concealment chain, ranger is staying in 4-5 meters and using focus aim properly (protip: when you have lots of ranged CA's up), and knowing bloody reminder and backstabs are some of our best parses CA's. But rogues and even dirges when in 'DPS mode' can compare to our auto attack DPS, so saying we are auto anything really doesn't hold weight anymore. Hate to 'turn' on some rangers but I have seen more than a few complain (even high end guys with avy gear) while having little to no idea what they are doing. Did teach me anyone can get uber geared by just sitting out and gathering what ever loot the others don't want anymore. Rangers all over need to make a point of looking at ZONEWIDES, that's where our power lies, and that is where you will see the real problems. Don't tell me you all do either because even in my own guild they hold individual fights over zonewides, mainly because unlike high DPS classes they can't compete on that scale. This is most likely what devs are looking at too. As Hoss pointed out probably even 'server wides' we don't even have access to. Ranger's are doing pretty bad but not nearly as bad as most of the ranger community insists. That or I seem to have magic powers that transcend the games mechanics allowing me to do decently.
-=Hoss=- wrote: Hoss, I don't know, are your delibrately misunderstanding me? I think Assassins are where they should be, again in my experience. I am certainly not calling for ANY Assassin nerf bat. In fact the to hit issue prevents assassins from being the defacto #1 DPS. But in our case the Assassin is the number #1 parser in the guild with the Wizard and Warlock close seconds but that could simply be the level of buffing they get. And as Ranja point out even noob rangers use Melee CA's but noobs also use Melee AutoAttack. On those rare occasions where I have other lauded Ranger's in a group with me I stick with them in the parse. I can outparse other faily well equipped guild assassins (T3) when they are in the same group. But I most certainly cannot come close to our main assassin in any group or raid setting. Those same assassins beat me significantly when they get the MT or OT slot that I will never have. Along with other issues the grouping logic issue is huge.
Striikor@Nektulos wrote: This is not going to sound like a serious question, but it is. WTF are you talking about striikor? You realize I wasn't talking to you here, right? So I'm going to need some help as to which of your words you think I was misunderstanding. I foolishly decided to give you some slack and went back through the thread to see where I had actually replied to you and what we were talking about ... and this was your first contribution. So for real, what invisible words am I misunderstanding? And finally, I suspect you're not raiding very tough content if the wizards and warlocks don't pwn the assassin. Like maybe you are killing xebnok. I don't say that as a slam of any sort on your guild, but just to point out that the higher mobs in progression are making me hate life as an assassin and casters seem to have a huge advantage.
Lethe5683 wrote: This is some garbage company line everyone in beta is toeing so the AAs that were leaked on the other site don't get people upset. In actuallity, they are not going to change that much and they will suck.
Ranja wrote: I hear the new SF AAs are now live on the test server, so we should be able to check. As we're less than 2 weeks to release date I'd be very suprised if what is on test now isn't exactly what we get on release day.
I've played my Ranger for 4 years now, and I'd say I disagree with most of what the OP said. I solo exclusively, don't Raid (don't have the time). I've read many times on these boards that Rangers are supposed to be about DPS -- anything that didn't feed that was useless. Ridiculous. Rangers are about Survivability. Running around the back country by yourself, surviving what ever you come across. We're Mountain Men, not watered down versions of Fighters, or stick-throwing versions of Mages. I've got three different ways of attacking -- Ranged, Melee, and Stealth plus Melee. Each plays different, comes in handy in different settings. It comes down to a single spec only if you're a Munchkin, and Min/Max DPS is all you care about. If that's what's fun for you, great. But that isn't all the players. Some of us like using the other abilities, to be more than DPS mills. Not that we don't like hitting things hard, there's just more to the game than that if you let it. Not every ability is a great one, but they're not all useless like so many are repeating here. AGI line is a necessary, no argument there. Expected -- we're bow users. Tried the STR line, and the final ability was little help (as everyone points out), but the Parry and Melee crit are nice. Tried STA, but that AE hit had too much reach, I kept getting unexpected pulls. There was no precision with it. The added Health wasn't enough to spend the points. INT line was OK, but didn't add much to my fights. I seem to be the only one that likes the the WIS line. Added Wisdom is always great for protection from spell casters; as a ranged fighter, that becomes critically important. The added defense is very noticable. Reducing Stealth timer is great -- stealth in, do my task, and jump right back into stealth before a roaming mob notices me. The Hate reduction isn't what's great about that 2nd ability; doesn't help solo players. But having another attack that works in the in-between distance is handy. Smoke-bomb is OK, but I've respecced several times with it in, with it out, and it just seems too un-Ranger-like for me to use.
Kyklopes wrote: You have been in the bush too long, and you are missing 75% of the content and challenge. Survivability if you are in an area that you can kite. Most other classes have as much or more survivablity particularly in tighter zones. I have been playing since Jan 2005 and I rolled a Ranger because I like to solo but also because they were T1 DPS. What you are talking about is the fun factor. No one is saying that that part is not there and you are right in that soloing a ranger is engaging. But it is such a small part of what the game is designed for and is about. Soloing exclusively is such a waste of content. You can dis our opinions with confidence only because you are casual and not explored the greater part of MMO. You really don't have any idea what you are talking about. You are wasting you money, do you typically buy a ticket to get you 25% to your destination? What you should do is buy a different game RP or FPS and continue to tiptoe through the tulips.
