The Mayong Origin Problem

Don't forget, he also has a thing for blonde High Elf chicks!

Meirril wrote:

personal attack? i would never do that! it was just a line that they say 'ooo that merill' - was trying to lighten the mood

Iskandar wrote:

and the more curvy Teir'Dal ones

I'm wondering now (and thanks all for chiming in--it's easing the Mayong Migraine significantly ) if what we have here is a hidden or incomplete information issue. Perhaps Inny used the Ewer to create the Ydal secretly, thus (inadvertantly?) tainting it and leaving Anashti Sul to take the fall for what happened next. (It would certainly explain why the Ydal remained ensconced in Mystmyr on his Plane--hiding the evidence...)
Might be the best way to reconcile the contradictions in the stories. And it's not the cop-out the 'PoT fix' theory admittedly is...

Honestly, I think Mayong is a character who's suppose to stay in the shadows. There's no really definitive proof of the whole Ydal or Innoruuk or Ewer thing. We just have vague snipits from brief mentionings in game that don't truely lead anywhere. We really only have anything a developer tells us, and they like to be cryptic, vague, misleading, or only telling small parts of the whole story.

If Veeshan "got here first" its probably "new testament" Brell then got here, and so on down our current pantheon.
As far as we've found out over the last 5 years was, Anashti was.....before all this? Ancient diety? So were the gods that Theer slain(ed?) As well as Theer... So how exactly, would Innoruuk use a relic to create a race that was actually "older" than his arrival to Norrath? A race that apparently, was older than the first brood.
I sense a paradox here somewhere and there just isn't enough to clarify a definitive timeline (good luck)
If you made Norrath, like Earth, then you definitely have huge amounts of time (and lore/science) to explore.

Brailyn@Oasis wrote:

Indeed. It's this very paradox that I want to have cleared up, because it's a retcon to the very History of Norrath story listed in the original Everquest instruction manual- the first bit of lore that anyone who played that game (when it started) was subjected to.

Down in the Ydal thread, there's some timeline discussion that can be used with the existing story lore -- basically, it's suggested that Inny didn't make the Ydal on Norrath, but instead made them in the Plane of Hate... if that's the case, and if Mayong is indeed an original Ydal, then he could have predated Veeshan's arrival on Norrath without any conflict with the core lore of the game. Perhaps Inny had him out in the area of Norrath to spy on Veeshan, thus sparing him from whatever fate befell the Ydal? (maybe cursing him with vampirism instead of whatever happened to the other Ydal?) It still leaves a lot of questions, but it does fit.
Anashti would have been involved in ancient Norrathian history -- long before the events of EQOA, and long before the Godking founded Ahket Aken... her original followers would probably be a race that we currently know nothing about (or if we do, we're unaware of it) whom she accidentally cursed with the "gift" of undeath, resulting in her banishment to the Void, where she meets up with Theer. Two Void invasions later -- one defeated by the Ethernauts way back when, the other defeated by us -- and Anashti is able to escape the Void, while we go in and finish off Theer.
Neither Anashti, Theer, nor the Ydal would be mentioned in the original EQ intro because from the perspective of the narrator, they're ancient history, footnotes at best. Think of it like when you discuss the Revolutionary War -- do you tell the tale of the guy who was rowing George Washington's boat, or do you just focus on Washington crossing the Delaware?

Veeshan 'discovered' Norrath. Norrath when it was discovered was a lifeless planet. This indicates that the gods existed prior to Norrath's discovery (but not necessarily that they existed prior to Norrath itself).
If the gods existed prior to Norrath's discovery, then so too, must Theer have existed.
If Norrath was a lifeless planet prior to the arrival of Veeshan, then who were these 'ancient' gods, and why did they rule over a lifeless planet. Or did they have any connection to Norrath at all?
After Norrath was discovered, many, (though not all), of the greater gods created their own races on Norrath. To the best of my knowledge, these races were not 'imported' from the gods' planes and transplanted onto Norrath, they were created upon Norrath itself.
It seems entirely believable to me that the Ydal were Innoruuk's (failed) attempt to create a race of his own. If so, then his attempt was not only a failure, but it was the ONLY failure of a god to successfully create a race, and his attempt was different than the way the other greater gods produced their offspring. (ie; the Ydal were create on the plane of Hate, while the other races were created upon Norrath itself)
If the Ewer was used in Innoruuks failed attempt, then who created the Ewer? There were no elves of any flavor prior to their creation by Tunare. Did Innoruuks attempt at race creation occur long after the other gods had already established their offspring on Norrath? It would seem so, but why the delay? Had he made other earlier attempts and failed even before his attempt to create the Ydal?
These repeated attempts and failures angered Innoruuk, made him jealous, and led him to attempt to corrupt another god's race and claim it as his own.

Mary the Prophetess wrote:

The stories say that Inny wasn't invited to either the first or second covenent. Just a few select dieties. Inny just seems incapable of making a race. Nothing stopped Cazic from making tons of races dedicated to his worship and he was a late commer. Nothing stopped the creation of Barbarians/humans/euradites and Frogloks and the Marr Twins showed up was later in the histories.
For all of the Theer stuff to make sense, it has to happen after Norrath is discovered and claimed by multiple gods. We've got several ages we really don't know a whole lot about so there is room in early Norrath history for more dieties. The whole Ydal story is baffling. Elves before there were elves? Created by Innoruuk and not Tunare? Created in *his* image? Tunare and Innoruuk look like they belong to the same race? A race made before Norrath was discovered? Seriously, why did Inny make them? The races on Norrath were made specifically to claim the planet for their respective gods. Something stinks about the Ydal story. Smells like someone decided to make up his own history after the fact.

Just because Norrath was a 'lifeless' planet when Veeshan flew past doesn't mean it was always a 'lifeless' planet
Maybe it was 'lifeless' because Anashti's creations spread and corrupted everything, including the plants and aminal, kinda like what would happen in a zombie attack: eventually all that would be left are zombies until eventually they too ran out of 'steam'
The reason there were no other gods around to repopulate? Theer isn't called the 'Gods Layer' because he sleeps with all of them And Anashti didn't get slain because she had already been banished and when Theer finished off the last of the Old Gods he went to the Void forgetting Ana was in there

^ The original opening video showed that Norrath was just a husk of a planet. Grey. It was no different than our own moon. No atmosphere, nothing capable of sustaining life. A completely blank slate. I think that if there was something that had ended life on Norrath before then, there'd at least be signs that vegitation, water, and structures had existed.

well that depends. we saw what happened with the gods withdraw direct influence. perhaps the lifeless planet became lifeless during the massive battle to disarm/shove theer into the Void? the huge amounts of power that must have been unleashed coudl probably easily wipe a planet clean, so to speak...think of it similar to norrath being a snadcastle that got eaten by a high tide. you'd never know there was a sandcastle there if you were n't the to see it before the tide ate it.

It's an interesting idea, but as said, it being true would seem to fall into the category of being a retcon. Before Veeshan Norrath was nothing, as far as we and anyone else knows. This has been an established truth since the very first game, and its first bits of lore. Despite how dispassionate she is, Zebuxoruk in EQlive chooses to refer to Veeshan as the 'lifegiver dragon', and calls Norrath 'her world'.
What would make sense though, is that Theer and the other fallen gods were not originally a part of Norrath's cosmology, but other worlds most likely. Mayong could indeed be as old as he claims, and at the same time he may not even truly be native to Norrath either. He may have witnessed or played a part in events that are similar to Norrath's that may have happened on another world entirely.
The ancient gods, Mayong, and Theer all could have been involved with a sort of 'beta' world or beta Norrath. We are told that the Nameless created the gods and Norrath, but what if there were gods, beings, and worlds that came into existence without the Nameless' influence? Beings that, by their very nature clashed with the Nameless' view of its ideal cosmos and thus it creates Theer originally to purge them, and then to later serve as an extension of its will over its creations.

Actually.

You people are forgetting the Behemoths. http://lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=410

^ Are we? We haven't been told anything more about them beyond that book and the cryptic notes that Vhalen told us that lead to that book, so how are we suppose to know that wasn't a retcon either?

Minor quibble, but I suspect calling the Ydal elves is an error in translation. Yes, "dal" is part of their name, but then a very intense version of "I love you" in Japanese contains an English cuss word for bodily waste (and the Japanese term is censored on the forums because of the word it contains). The Ydal were a separate, independently-created race, so why would we actually expect them to be using a word from another race's language to describe themselves? Teir'dal, on the other hand, were created from the Elddar, and so their language and self-identification could naturally be expected to extend from their original race.
So yeah, pretty sure the "dal" in "Ydal" has nothing to do with elves, but was later translated as such by younger races who ran across it and noticed the similarity. Race created by Innoruuk, "dal" in the name, must be a type of dark elf!
Which means we can safely have the Ydal existing in their section of the Plane of Hate before the true elves were created.
But then, I'm also a fan of the Norrath-before-Norrath, worldwide-cataclysm theory. It DOES make sense. History is written by the survivors, and they can only write as much as they know. Call it a retcon, and maybe it is, but it's entirely possible the Norrath creation story we all know is incomplete or incorrect simply because it's from incorrect or misleading sources. Whatever may or may not have existed before Veeshan came, the dragons were the first of the modern Norrathian races, and glossing over any claims to the planet that might predate theirs would certainly be in their best interests.
I know I'm talking about a lot of this from the in-character view - but to me it makes perfect sense to look at Norrath's history from that viewpoint. For one thing, the whole purpose of it is to establish the background of the world for our characters; ergo, it's reasonable to look at it in terms of "this is what our characters know." For another (and I know this won't be popular), in a game world over 10 years old, with 2 PC games, 1 console game, a pen-and-paper game, and various novels as lore sources, and who-knows-how-many people having been involved in crafting the lore, there's going to be inconsistencies and "facts" that don't fit. Heck, we can't even get all the historians in real life to agree to various "facts" of our history, especially as we discover information that was unknown or misunderstood for years. So having a game-world history that is up for debate seems more realistic than a simplified "this is how the world is, the end" approach.

I disagree. Without a certain level of 'concreteness' to aspects of the the lore, it leaves far too much open to interpretation, to the point where retcons or any other form of weirdness or jumping the shark moments can be inserted freely and with impunity. If there is nothing solid regarding something, there would be no accountability in regards to how something is dismissed or acknowledged.
It can be tantamount to making every single time a character is about to dramatically die in a movie, they are instead killed off screen giving the possibility of them mysteriously appearing again from plot demands or random whim with no explanation because we didn't actually see them die, thus leaving their condition vague.
My theory as to some of this is posted above, but I do have to agree slightly with the notion that the dragons may be passing off misinformation. They are a proud race, and would have every reason to make such claims, however because of their pride they could also possibly be telling the truth because of it.
As far as the original lore goes, it is stated outright that Veeshan was the first to discover Norrath, it also states that the world was in such a condition that it was considered promising and new to the god. It also states that there were other worlds created at similar times, if Norrath had already been claimed in would she not have passed it up for worlds unclaimed? Then again, there is also the possibility that she simply didn't care.

We have only Veeshan and her Brood's word that Norrath was how she claimed it was when she 'claimed' it

Actually, to be more precise, we have the words of the orator of the introduction movie. This is the all-knowing, all-seeing word of the games designers.
Before you enter Norrath, before you even get to the character selections screen, the very FIRST exposure to Norrath and it's history is from the introductory movie, and the orator.
Surely the very first words out of the orator's mouth cannot have been designed to have been a lie or a half-truth!