The Mayong Origin Problem

I think not allowing people to fight Mayong would have been a major mistake. There is nothing worse than devs maintaining some kind of invincible, mary-sue NPC that always pushes the PCs around but who you never actually get to fight. I mean, it isn't as if a major villain has to be invincible in order to be effective. Sauron got his rear handed to him by a dog for goodness sake (Huan), it doesn't make him less of a badass during the Lord of the Rings (Interestingly enough, Sauron's chief minions were vampires and werewolves, sound familiar?)
Besides, Mayong does tell you straight-up that he sensed the importance of your destiny, and therefore let you escape with your meaningless victories in past battles. After all, Mayong is an immortal undead overlord who pretty much runs Norrath, he doesn't need to prove anything to a bunch of mortal adventurers.

"...you always come back!"
Buffy said that about Dracula, but I think Mayong fits the bill. One can always say he was just testing our heroes...for later reference as his plans unfold, of course. The usual 'canon sez you didn't defeat him' actually has a valid out in this case.

I'd say he does. If he wants to prove to us mortals that he's NOT evil, then he can directly get involved with us right at the beginning of our battles against those that are greater than him.

Come on, we players deserve more credit than being called mere "mortal adventurers". Mortal adventurers who in the past have fought the actual gods and weakened their power forcing them to retreat from the world. Mortal adventurers who destroyed Anashti Sul's physical form and freed her from the void. Mortal adventurers who destroyed Munzok and defeated Miragul. Mortal adventurers who have now killed the Godslayer and Master Yael the Sentinel of the Underfoot....mortal adventurers who will presumably defeat Kerafyrm the awakened. And many other insert things we have or will do. I think some of us, particularly those who end up interacting with Mayong have stopped being mere mortal adventurers a long time ago.

The_Cheeseman wrote:

The major issue is that we've got information on a Ydal race that conflicts with the previously known facts about the creation of Norrath and the Elves specifically. From EQ1 days we know that Tunare created the elves in her image. We know that Innoruuk stole the first King and Queen and used those that attempted to rescue them to create the Teir'dal. We also knew that Innoruuk attempted to steal Mithanial Marr's gift of life so he could create his own race. And we knew that nobody knew where Mayong Mistmoor came from and he was an International Man of Mystery.
...and now? Inny uses the Ewer to create his own race in his own plane in his own image BEFORE NORRATH IS POPULATED. And they happen to look exactly like Teir'dal. That entire race happens to be flawed due to the creation process and poof! They all self destruct except for Mayong and he happens to get to Norrath just in time to see the first brood get planted. And yet...Inny can't create another race. Not only that but he steals Tunair's children to re-make his Ydal but calls them Teir'dal instead. And this time he places them underground on Norrath instead of his own plane.
Really? This was better as a hollow boast on Mayong's part. The more real the devs try to make this claim, the more unreal it makes...everything.
Next we're going to find out that T Marr beat Inny up and stole Inny's Gift of Life so he could create his own children and passed it on to them...

I am not really sure what about this story bothers you, but it seems neat to me! We find out that Innorruuk actually tried and failed to create his own race once in the past, thereby giving him motivation for corrupting Tunare's creations rather than make his own. We have a backstory for Mayong that explains his disdain for Innorruuk as well as his extreme age and obvious differences from other known vampires. None of the information really conflicts with any of the established lore, all it does is elaborate further on points that were previously either glossed-over or ignored entirely.

The only part of the story I have a real problem with is the "when" of the Ydal. All other aspects can be meshed into the lore "good enough".
Since the "when" comes exclusively from Mayong himself, we can cure a host of ills by simply rejecting Mayong's "when" as a deliberate deception.

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Are you purposefully obtuse? The issue has been pointed out several times by different people, you however appear to be choosing to ignore it. Closing your eyes and pretending its not there does not change the fact that it is still a problem. Mayong's supposed origin, and what we have been told already in the past are what is clashing. They cannot both be right.
So because you seem to think it is "neat" makes it all okay? That's a dangerous and flawed justification in my opinion. This sort of issue needs to be properly explained and justified. It cannot be allowed to go unchallenged, leaving it unchallenged simply emboldens them to do it more and more without fear of being called out on it due to a proliferation of apathetic enablers.
Nagafen was, in everquest a red fire dragon. In everquest 2, he is still a red fire dragon. In the events before everquest he was imprisoned for trying to mate with lady Vox because the result would be more dragons like Kerafyrm. But wait, lets make him more interesting by saying he really was the father of Kerafyrm too!
They never outright said he wasn't, we have hints here and there that Dozekar the cursed was Kerafyrm's father, but that was never directly confirmed either, it would make Nagafen cooler if he actually was, even though it is impossible because he was not even born let alone mature at the time. But who cares, because its cooler? Let's just say he used time travel and trash what we know about the setting even further.
I mean, why stop there? Why don't they just go on out and state that everything we think we know about the lore and the setting is wrong so they can make up any thing they want? There's no need to justify anything as long as it's cool right?

Morghus wrote:

Actually, Cronyn sent me a PM a few days ago saying that Everquest officially takes place as part of the Halo universe, where Jack Sparrow is the leader of the Elites, who are actually trying to take over the Galaxy in order to promote the Jedi religion. It's the Xenomorphs you gotta be careful of, because they have Dr. Doom giving them orders and trying to get everyone addicted to the Yu-Gi-Oh card game.

Rainmare@Oasis wrote:

We never 'beat him.'
Do you remember what he says when he tells you to keep the chelsith stone safe? Because your character asks him how he is still alive when 'we had killed you.'
He says that he only lead you to believe you had killed him. It was a ruse to make you think he was gone.
Basically he faked his death so he would be out of the spot light and could continue his research without being interrupted by us or whatever other powerful beings there are that may have had their eyes on him.

Meirril wrote:

In regards to Inny's Y'dal and Tunare's Dal each being created in their own gods image, yet still appearing so similar.... it's pure speculation, of course, but perhaps this is simply because Innoruuk and Tunare share a common ancestry?
I could very well be mistaken, but I don't recall any "origin story" for either of them. And we do know that several of the gods and demigods were not born/created as deities but were instead elevated to their position. Could both Inny and Tunare have been created by the same elemental god, perhaps? Or maybe they were elevated to godhood from the same race on some distant world, long before Norrath existed? Or maybe I'm just up too late...or too early, depending on your perspective
Sure, Innoruuk and Tunare have some obvious physical differences (those links have some decent art of each btw), but it's still not inconceivable that they have similar origins (a similar fantasy example would be Golum, who began his existence as a Hobbit, but ended it looking more like a midget troll ).
Just a late-night sleep-deprived food-for-thought shot-in-the-dark over-hyphenated idea

I know that as a Lore hunter...adn I read the npc text. but I know alot of my fellow raiders are up in arms about his continued presence for the same reason. they are getting sick of seein ghim after they have 'stomped' him 3-4 times now. hell people were aggravated when Venekor showed back up in HoS. they were like 'really? could they have not thought of ANYTHING else?'
yes, Mayong allows us to win so we'll leave him alone and let him get back to work. yes Mayong is a LOT stronger then any of us really grasp about him.
as to the 'mortal adventurers' you have to remember that as far as the game goes, WE don't do any of that stuff. it an 'unamed raid' or 'unknown heroes' that do it. whcih is why all of us are running around with Soulfire adn Claymore weapons or there are dozens of us wearing Master Yael's left eyeball as an earring. as far as the continuity goes, we are just 'mortal adventurers'
where does it state that Mayong has an animosity toward Innoruuk? I know that the leaders in Evernight Abbey reffer to a Curse from Inny in thier respective rooms...but that doesn't mean that Mayong has any kind of problem with Innoruuk. in fact, from what we gather, Mayong was the ONLY one that had access to PoHate after the gods 'cut norrath off'. the notes of the Sage claim that he went there looking for artifacts/information. doesn't seem like something someone with a grudge or issues with Inny would get away with.

Rainmare@Oasis wrote:

I disagree, it's happening, the sky is shattering and the gods are going to make a death star out of you.

Rainmare@Oasis wrote:

Sounds like the people you raid with have their panties in a wad. I raid myself and can't recall anyone ever complaining about him, most regular raiders just don't care.

Cusashorn wrote:

i'd quit my job to play that MMO....all day.

Morghus wrote:

Let's keep this friendly, shall we? I am not being obtuse about anything, I am honestly asking you exactly what details of Mayong's origin you feel have been contradicted. I would like to point out that a lot of the information we once used to speculate on the subject came from non-canon sources, such as message board posts by developers and 3rd-party game supplements. What did we really KNOW about Mayong's origin when considering only sources from within EQ2 and timeline-relevant sections of EQ1? Specifically, which of those details do you see as being directly contradictory to the newer lore? I honestly can't think of any off-hand, but I have never claimed to be infallible. All I am asking for are citations.
I also think you are slightly overreacting, here. Do you really believe that pointing out lore inconsistencies on the forums will prevent the developers from doing whatever they want in the future? I suggest that this belief, while perhaps not "purposefully obtuse", is somewhat naive. It doesn't help that you immediately invoke the informal fallacy of slippery-slope, either. There is no reason at all to believe that the developers have some villainous plan to discredit all the existing canon and re-write EQ2 as a time-traveling sci-fi anime.
You call me an apathetic enabler, I call myself a fan who doesn't sweat the small stuff. The Bible directly contradicts itself in multiple passages, do you really expect that the setting of a mere Fantasy MMO will be perfectly consistent? The developers are doing their best to produce a compelling and inspiring world for our characters, but they're only human and will occasionally make mistakes. Personally, I find such mistakes to be easily justified if the result is greater narrative depth and character development.
So no, I don't think that the developers have any obligation to "justify" their narrative choices to us. It is, after all, THEIR story to tell. If they want Mayong to actually be a transvestite hooker from a parallel Norrath where everybody drinks through their fingertips, that is their prerogative. Now, compromising their artistic integrity so greatly would certainly jeopardize the future of their product, so doing so would be inadvisable, but it is completely within their rights. The devs do not answer to us: we are in their world, now.
Personally, I'd prefer the EQ2 team spend their limited development time crafting intriguing new stories for us to experience, rather than wasting it fact-checking everything they write against decade-old lore minutia that the vast majority of players neither know nor care about. They've done an amazing job keeping true to the existing lore thus far, and I think their honest affection for the setting really shows through in their work
However, as I mentioned above, I am curious as to exactly which details of Mayong's origin you feel have been violated, as I would like to analyze them further myself and perhaps adapt my timeline, if necessary.

The_Cheeseman wrote:

see that's prolly a difference there. I consider a dev post to be pretty much the word of God. if a dev says something happened, then it happened. If Vhalen says mayong was here to see the First Brood, then he damn sure was...or that mayong is some 10.5k years old...he is. things like that should stay consistant. if every peice of information, including major events, are due to an explicit fact, then changing that fact is wrong and a disservice to the people who are enjoying the story. If I'm going to write a story about say...Raistlin Majere from Dragonlance..and I change his eyes, or make him not a twin, or turn him from a powerful mage into a thief...yes people will get up in arms about it. becuase there are some facts that I should stick to becuase they are part of the character concept. and I should know these facts.
In this case, that fact is that until this Ydal shoehorn...Inny has been unable to create a race of his own. he had to steal the elves to creat the Teir'dal. he tried to take Mith Marr's Gift of Life...that resulted in barbs and frogloks thanks to morelle's intervention...to be able to make his own race. everything we know about Inny says he wasn't aware of Norrath till much after the pact, adn that he can't create a race of his own and instead corrupts the creations of others.
now this tidbit here says inny can create his own race. made one long before the pact on norrath apparently, kept it in PoH. Mayong was apparently one of this race, so I guess he saw the first brood from PoH. to me it sounds like the Ydal was made up specificly to give Mayong a 'special' race to be part of. and it does indeed contradict what we've known about Inny for what? 11 years now?
Not to mention it requires Inny to have an artifact that he by no means should have been able to get his hands on. the only way you can even remotely see him using the ewer in the timeline we're given is if Anashti herself handed it over. which makes no sense. why would the goddess of health/life give an artifact like that to the God of Hate?

A serious question:
How much of this tangle is fixed if Mayong is lying?

Occam's Razor, people.

None of it, actually. Unfortunately if it was something we could solve by saying mayong is lying to us we prolly would. but the Ydal thing is more about the idea that there are some general facts that the devs have told us about Mayong, adn some general facts that they've told us about Inny, that the whole Ydal thing clashes with.
Mayong is somewhere in the range of 10,500 years old.
Mayong was here to see the First Brood. now this one we can speculate is that he was here to see when the First Brood was active..i.e. the Eldar Age/end of the Age of Scale rather then here when V put them on norrath.
Inny goes to great length at least once to steal another gods 'essence of life' becuase he wants it to create his own race, becuase he himself can't do it on his own. he fails, but the point is still there.
Inny, becuase he can't create a race of his own, made the Teir'dal from Tunare's elves. Also, Inny didn't have any involvement with Norrath until after the first pact was made, becuase he was angry they other gods didn't invite him to join in on it...and the timeline for the creation of the Tier'dal obviously shows that the elves were already flourishing, and had an established society with a monarchy.

Then we have how the race was actually made...which was inny's blood in the Ewer of Sul'dae. this creation has to take place before Anashti is banished, becuase her use of it, and it's unleashing undeath on norrath, is what gets her banished. So Anashti has to willinging allow Inny to use the Ewer to make his race, even though up to this point everything we know about Inny says he can't create his own race.
add all this up and it seems like the Ydal was made up to give Mayong a 'special' unknown race to be part of, by someone that didn't bother to even do a cursory check of the information about Mayong or Inny. it was just a 'this sounds like a neat idea' thing that they ran with.

You know, there is one elegant solution to all of this. Mayong traveled from the future to Norrath to witness the beginning of the end of Norrath and is desperately looking for a way to prevent Ages End where in his future Kerafyrm has destroyed Norrath and is going on a rampage in the planes destroying the other gods and their followers. As the last of the Ydal he has sworn to not allow his own future to exist and believes that the moment he can stop it is comming up.
So the Ydal don't exist yet, or maybe Inny was able to create the Ydal after Mayong went to visit him on his own plane while Mayong was a diety? Maybe Mayong brought along the Ewer and then broke and discarded it in the Living Tombs because he knew it needed to be found soon.
While this is extremely far fetched, and I hate time travel, the devs used this with Miragul so why not Mayong as well?