That old dead horse -- lack of prismatic bow rewards

TerriBlades wrote:

The forum loves boxes. Oh well. You are looking at this with binders on, really, when you say progression is fabled to fabled. Were you wearing fabled when you left Queen's colony? No. Fabled is the top end.
Sure, if a player is all dressed in fabled, then why would they switch out gear to something less? They wouldn't. But you seem to be disregarding the majority of the player base as beneath your notice with that statement, as NOT EVERYONE IS DRESSED IN FABLED!
And FYI, I never said the drop should be a Fabled Bow. I just said it could be an epic quest reward. And I'm sure Raincaller was pretty easy for a serious raiding guild to accomplish in a day, but once again that situation is NOT THE SAME for everyone else. You are refusing to take into account players who might not be as far progressed as you, or as geared out as you are, and those players are looking at this from the perspective of a much lower tier, progression wise. You know, there are players who haven't even hit 70 yet, who haven't been playing this game as long, not to mention quite a few players who have hit 70, and haven't progressed as high as the top, but it doesn't mean they aren't trying.
Logically, progression is progress, which is what this is about. NOT having a better bow than what the more accomplished raiders have, but having a better bow than what is available now, when the next expansion comes out. After all, with the increase of levels, older zones such as KOS, and even the newer zones in EOF will become easier simply due to leveling. This doesn't affect the RNG in any way, however. Asking rangers to continue to wait on a better bow, is ridiculous, because everyone else will have leveled past those zones, and 'progressed' to higher zones.
When the time comes and the raidleader announces "We're raiding ROK tonite" and a ranger still hasn't gotten a better bow, just what do you figure his chances are for getting invited along with 'last years' gear?

[p]I see a lot of claims that Rangers can't keep up on the parse until they get a fabled bow. I just don't think that is the case. Consider this. A Ranger that is parsing 3k zone wide is doing 50% auto-attack. That means that 1.5k is from their combat arts and procs. If that same Ranger swapped their Rigid Scale for the Bylze bow, they'd parse at least 800 auto-attack with Bylze, giving them 2.3k. 2.3k isn't a bad parse. If you are parsing 2.3k with Bylze, the raid leader isn't going to think you suck (and if they do, that is more their issue than yours).[/p][p]If you are parsing 1k without a fabled bow, then you need to work on some other things (as discussed in many threads here). You can get close to 2k dps zone wide without the best bow and honestly, the work you do pushing to get 2k without a fabled bow will just make you really shine when you finally get that bow.[/p][p]The biggest problem is that because of ammo, there isn't a legendary progression in bows. Torn Ligament would be a perfect progression if it summond T8 ammo, and really that would probably end a lot of the complaints. Sony probably should either fix ammo so it doesn't have such a drastic (and really confusing, imo) affect on bow damage, provide a better way to get T8 ammo (similar to the Bag of Cogs), or provide some other legendary bow progression to compensate for the ammo issue.[/p]

Harry@Venekor wrote:

[p]If your guild hasn't been able to kill the mobs in KoS, much less EoF, to get you a fabled bow, then I don't think your raid leader is going to say "we're raiding RoK tonight". At best, he will say let's do EH or MMIS or New Tunaria whereupon you will get the fabled bow you want.[/p][p]And that fabled bow from EH, MMIS, or New Tunaria will be better than any legendary RoK Epic Quest bow. As it should be. [/p]

I couldnt agree with you more here.

[p]Three things:[/p][p]1) Once again, I am not a non-raider. I am not asking for non-raid rewards. I am not asking for a fabled bow to come from something that does not require a raid. I can and have killed quite a number of raid targets and zones, including everything in KoS. I am simply not yet capable of killing Mayong and Woushi, or EH. Tarinax? Venekor? I can and have killed them over and over and over again.[/p][p]2) I fully expect that the RoK legendary bow will be worse than T7 fabled bows. That's how it should be. Should it be worse than Raincaller? I sure hope not. Rain Caller may be fabled, but it is T6, not T7. We're looking at a two tier difference. [/p][p]3) Pulling off 2.3k with a ghostly bow of bylze? Zonewide? Um. No. No, I'd have to call BS on that. That bow is better than Rain Caller (and, I should point out, it's TREASURED), but it's not THAT much better.[/p][p]None of these things has anything to do with the issue at hand. That is, the epic quest rewards should include a bow to address the fact that rangers do not use melee auto-attack in groups or raids except in very special circumstances, generally when we are being penalized by minimum range and can't get out far enough.[/p][p]I understand it won't help the top end rangers. But as you say yourself, you don't need bows where you're sitting right now. [/p]

kartikeya wrote:

1. While you might not be capable of killing Mayong or Wuoshi, you are capable of killing Sarik. I know its not much, and I dont know how often you are even doing HoS or DT these days, but it is something. Tarinax and Venekor have some pretty hugh loot tables, thats a small part of the problem with not being able to get your hand on a coveted bow.
2. Yes, the RoK legendary should be better then Raincaller due to the fact that theres a 2 tier difference.
3. 2.3k? I donno, I never used this bow. As to the matter of it being Treasured and out damaging Raincaller? Things fall through the cracks all the time. Its quite possible that this was one of them. Do you have any idea how many items are added into the game with each new expansion? Meh... me either, but Im sure its a handful to keep track of, and if the Devs never made mistakes, we'd never even know what a nerf is.

The fact is, good bows can be hard to come by, but if good bows like Sarnak, LBoC, SDL and RSB were easier to get, would this even be an issue for any raiding ranger? I dont think it would. Why? Because more then likely any of those bows would be better then what you are going to get from completing your claymore. But that only comes down to one of two issues. Large loot tables and flakey RNGs, and the ablility to kill things So... as you put it.. if good bows were easier to get " you wouldnt need bows where your sitting ".. and thus.. an non issue. Theres more then one way to achieve the goal you are after here.

[p]Actually, it would still be an issue, because the bottom line is that these quests SHOULD offer a bow choice, simply from how the devs have designed the classes. Period. That's it. Every single mob in existence could drop a bow, and the argument would still be there.[/p][p]1. No, I'm not. My raid force might be able to take him, I don't know. But we aren't doing EH yet. [/p][p]2. Seems we agree.[/p][p]3. Of course things fall through the cracks. I was simply pointing out the flaw in the progression. Bottom line, I'd be willing to bet that no one but the BEST equipped ranger (meaning, they're already killing Woushi and Mayong, thus the bow of Bylze is a non-issue for them), with a raid force set up to benefit them the most, could pull off those numbers with that bow. I know a ranger with a fabled bow off of one of the cube mobs (Dragonhorn I think, 95 DR), who can just barely hit 2k. Sometimes. And he's far better geared than I am, with his claymore proc which is being nerfed. Is Bylze better than Raincaller? Yes. I wish I'd known that before I ignored it as a quest reward (I was ignorant a year ago, I thought Grizzfazzle's was better). Is it capable of producing the numbers that would prove it an acceptable upgrade to match the upgrades all other classes are getting in this particular apart of the progression? No. And it shouldn't be. [/p][p]All of this, of course, is beside the point. There are plenty of dual wield weapons. Plenty of shields. Plenty of staves, plenty of 1 handed weapons, and we're overflowing with 2handers. How many bows there are or aren't or how easy they are to obtain is a side issue that is only highlighted by the fact that bows are hard to get and there is a nasty hole in the gearing up progression for rangers, not the issue itself.[/p][p]If a dev descended from on high and gave me the RSB tonight, it would not change the fact that this IS an issue. It would just mean it wasn't an issue that personally affected me any longer. At least until the next overarching quest series. I'd still argue for it. *shrug*[/p]

[p]If the Ranger using it is parsing 3k with Rigid Scale, I don't see why 2.3 wouldn't be possible with Bylze. A 3k zone wide parse, means you have a good raid force, good buffs and good other gear. Swapping just the bow out means you get to keep all that. I would think that 2.3 would certainly be possible in that situation. Give me a number you do think is possible in that situation? 1.9k? 2k? If 50% of 3k is auto-attack, that means that 1.5k of that is combat arts and procs. So, if that person didn't auto-attack, they'd be getting 1.5k. How much on top of that would you add for the Bylze or Rain Caller?[/p][p]What numbers are the wizards and assasins (and whoever else) that are outparsing rangers with Bylze and Rain Caller getting? What numbers are the rangers that are getting outparsed getting?[/p][p]Here are a few of my last raids using Bylze. I put both dps and extdps numbers in. These are zone-wide.[/p][p]FTH - 1751 dps, 1541 extdps Lyceum - 2130 dps, 1868 extdps FTH - 2024 dps, 1816 extdps HoS - 1793 dps, 1491 extdps MMIS - 1988 dps, 1690 extdps[/p][p]Several of these I have illusory arm on me (I think all but the first FTH actually), but never (actually maybe not never, but almost never) have a dirge, inquisitor, zerker, or wizard in my group (or really any other buffs for that matter) and half of them we didn't have a brigand. I'm also pretty sure I can improve these numbers. That's one thing that keeps the game interesting, trying to eek out every bit of dps I can from this class. [/p]

[p]Generally, with Rain Caller, I'm getting about 1.5k. Our assassins are about 2k, occasionally 2.5k. Conjurors and Necros are about the same as assassins (though I've seen our regular conjuror hit some incredible numbers, but that was in Lyceum, which I understand is a Conjy's paradise for DPS). I don't regularly raid with a swashy, but the ones I've seen have been hitting about 2k or slightly above very, very regularly. [/p][p]You're pulling out numbers that are slightly higher than mine, which is about what I'd expect from the Bylze bow. Like I said, with the best possible gear, and a very good group, I could see a ranger hitting your estimated numbers zonewide. But that would be a ranger in a position to already have a much, much better bow via Mayong or Woushi, or even the new Tunaria zone, which means it's a bit moot, as a ranger at that progression level will have a better bow. The progression level that is the trouble spot will not be pulling out those kinds of numbers. I just don't see it happening. Maybe on a freak fight or two, but not zonewide.[/p][p]I'd love to be wrong on that. I would. But I really don't believe it's possible without HEAVILY weighing things entirely in the ranger's favor with gear and group makeup.[/p]

I totally agree that a Ranger in that position would most likely have a better bow. I was really just trying to say that we can push 2k without the fabled bows. In a really nice buff group (zerker, dirge, inq, illy) , I think 2k would be pretty much a given with either Rain Caller or Bylze. I don't want to get too off topic with your numbers, but I would probably want to know what buffs the others are getting and what your str/int is, etc. You could start another thread if you wanted to go over it more.

In the ROK announcement, it was stated that 24 specific rewards is slated for our epic weapon quest.. Here's hoping that Rangers are going to see that long asked for bow. Legendary type for nonraiders, but the fabled type will be in reach for raiding rangers. Oh please, let it be a bow!

You're going to get a special 2h ranger only sword, AND YOU'RE GOING TO LIKE IT!

[p]screw bow's, unless they summon t9 ammo, we're going to get bows from raiding and quest rewards probably, what we need is ammo, and not those player crafted money sinks, I'm tried of making or buying arrows all the time[/p][p]ammo is so important and it should go hand and hand with what we get as rewards, makeshift arrows is going to be unless if they give us that ca upgrade in rok, so mine as well let the epic rewards be a summon arrow thing so we dont have a huge money sink anymore[/p]

No. Lol, the dev's have already put an big ole "No" on the whole endless quiver thing... And even if they haven't, there are two bows that summon t8 ammo in this expansion, I can't imagine them not putting some more in the next. I'd rather not have every ranger in the game using t9 ammo when this comes out, the bows that summoned it were put there as an added bonus for those rangers who chose to do what this game was based on... Raiding.

Nesse@Oasis wrote:

[p]You are right about Sarik being an easy kill but please find a raid leader that is willing to bring an entire raid into EH just to kill Sarik when he knows the raid force isnt ready for the zone entirely and that Sarik may not even be up.. Coming from a raid leaders point of view, I would not waste the time and effort just for a chance to get a bow for a ranger. That ranger will have to wait until I feel the raid force is ready to start testing that zone. So though you are correct about Sarik being an easy kill and a great source for bows, you'll find that very very few raid leaders would go out of their way just to try to help a ranger get a bow. This may change with the new persistent instance changes coming soon but until then I dont see a full raid going into EH until they have at least gotten FTH and MMIS on farm status. [/p][p]Oaklin - 70 Ranger[/p][p]Co-Founder/Recruiting Officer/Co-Raid Leader [/p][p]Melloneamin- Antonia Bayle [/p]

Qaeadyen wrote:

Last I checked it wasn't just rangers that use bows. Sarik drops nice bows, and some other decent gear. I have never seen a guild that has all of their fighters and scouts using nice bows... And any raid leader who wouldn't spend the 5 minutes to zone in a scout and hit track to see if they got a shot at an item that can help out 2 of the 4 archetypes is... well... ****, I dont want to say stupid, but inconsiderate to say the least.

Some raid leaders are not willing to deter from the schedule like that Explosivo. mainly due to limited time and set schedules. I understand your point completely , trust me, I wish I could convince our current raid leader to deter from the norm and farm Sarik but it just wont happen until he feels the raid force is ready to start consistently testing EH. I want one of those bows just as much as any other ranger that needs a bow upgrade but I will have to wait about another month until we start to delve into EH. Some raid leaders would rather follow progression than deter from the norm. It is what it is.

Yup, Sarik also drops the Waning Moon Cutter which is an awesome weapon. If your guild is making any progress in EoF raids then you'd probably be able to kill Sarik on your first try assuming that everyone knows how to use an MA. Also, the Mistress of the Veil is only barely more difficult then Sarik so if you can kill Sarik you should be able to kill her also. You'd also be able to start gathering up seeds for the recipes and get practice on the solo trials for when your guild is ready to put serious effort into progressing through EH. If all you care about is Sarik and the Mistress and your guild isn't ready for the Rumbler and Tender, you should be able to kill both of them in less time then it'd take you to clear Freethinker's...

Yes, even the raid leader knows we can take down Sarik and probably more than that but right now we are focusing on MMIS and New Tunaria. Also, our raid leader (which is also our main tank) happens to be having pc probs right now so until he gets back our progression has slowed. I thought Waning Moon Cutter's proc wont be working off of ranged attacks in the upcoming dw weapon changes...? Still a good weapon for melee based classes though.