That old dead horse -- lack of prismatic bow rewards

^^^

[p]That last post offered very little of value... However there was at least one thing I wanted to comment on.[/p][p]Since you feel that you are being personally cheated out of an epic reward, try this, and get back to me.[/p][p]Go out on a raid, remove ANY melee weapons you might have and let me know how that works out of you. You know, since your melee weapon is worth nothing more then a stat buff, why bother even equiping one.[/p][p]Right about now, I suspect that all of you are saying to yourselves.. hell no, theres no way Im removing my melee weapon. And why is that? Because dispite how it might not be "your weapon of choice", it still offers you some advantage over having nothing at all. Thus, making a melee weapon somewhat useful, regardless of the fact that it isnt your primary weapon.[/p]

TerriBlades wrote:

As does yours. Unless you're implying that we don't have any weapons to start with. If stats are all that are important, hey, why not spend 5pp and buy myself a Bloodspiller, rather than complete an epic quest.

I mean, same difference, right?

Sorry, no.

It's a simple matter of Risk versus Reward. Here's an example:

Guardian A puts in an amount of risk and time to complete a reward.
- Guardian A receives massive upgrade, Qeynos Guard.

Ranger B puts in an identical amount of risk and time to complete a reward.
- It follow then, that (all factors being equal) Ranger B receives an upgrade of value equivalent to that of Qeynos Guard.

Currently, this isn't the case. It's as simple a debate as that. The Risk and Time versus Reward is skewed, and therefore creating an unbalance, particularly in the area of rangers.

[p]And somehow you STILL fail to get my point.[/p][p]Just because a melee weapon isnt your primary weapon, doesnt make the quests a total waste of your time. Stop acting like you get nothing from these quests. You do. Its usable by a ranger, however **** it may be. I dont recall seeing assassins running out and replacing their DoNs and GDoHs for claymore.[/p]

[p] Err, actually, no. I was thinking 'sure, I'd do that for an experiment'. I'd lose about 50 strength, some int. Strength and int are good, of course, but as previously mentioned many a time, I can get strength and int for those slots an awful lot easier than doing an entire epic quest which rewards every other class with something of much more use.[/p][p]I'd like to point out here that we're all entitled to our opinions. No one has the monopoly to say what someone should or shouldn't spend their energy posting about. I'd like to keep things civil, because I think this thread bears some serious attention, and I'd hate for it to get locked due to arguing and flaming.[/p]

Maybe it's because your point is invalidated by the fact that we don't use melee. Here, since stats are the only thing that are important, let's take a look at this. [size="xx-small"]Qeynos Kilij[/size] FABLED LORE NO-TRADE ORNATE +30 str +20 int +100 health +100 power [size="xx-small"]Bloodspiller[/size] LEGENDARY ATTUNEABLE +28 str +28 int +70 health +80 power So, essentially, you're saying it's worth doing what amounts to WEEKS of camping, grinding, questing, and raiding For +2 Strength -8 Int, +30 health, +20 power? I'm sorry, but if that's your justification, I really can't take you seriously. For Rangers, this reward is either useless, or valued at under 5pp.

[p]Hardly invalidated. Have you tried usen a MELEE CA without equiping a melee weapon? They sort of go hand in hand. However, if you insist that you dont use or need a melee weapon go right ahead with that line of thinking. Keep dealing nothing but ranged damage and keep parsing on the bottom of the list. [/p]

I'm sorry, I didn't know we were arguing that the completer of the Claymore quest was naked of all gear throughout. Seriously, what sort of feeble argument is that? So, let's see. By that high standard of "allows us to use melee CAs", I suppose I'd better go back to the Isle of Refuge and camp a 'worn dirk'. Equivalent to the Kilij, you heard it from TerriBlades first.

[p]Thats an excellent way of avoiding the point. However, it made no sense what so ever. I never said anything about anyone being completely naked.[/p][p]You did however say that "we (rangers) don't use melee". After pointing out where you couldnt be further from the truth with that statement, you want to call my arguement feeble? And on top of that, spin it to something I never said?[/p][p]Rangers do use melee. Albiet not alot, we all still use them. Making both DW and 1HD weapons USABLE by rangers. So when useing the arguement that a melee weapon is completely useless for a ranger, so they should give us a bow... that logic if flawed.[/p][p]Edit:[/p][p]Feel free to continue changing your post to try and add more stuff I never said as a means of trying to make me look like I dont know what Im talking about to try and strengthen your side of the arguement. Yet you still havent provided a solid reason why they should cater to your wants.[/p]

Just as flawed as claiming that a reward from Claymore would increase our melee CA damage. I never said "Rangers don't ever fire off Melee CAs" I simply said that melee autoattack is worthless for Rangers. Literally, you could use a 1-2 damage item, and as long as it had strength and int on it, well, there you go. No need to do the Claymore, right there.

Most of my edits were for grammar, but a point's a point, and you've got one on only one key issue here - this is getting nowhere, and as I don't desire to see this thread degenerate further into our bickering, I'm going to stop there. If you feel that's inadequate and truly want to see my points, well, hey. All you need to do is reread the points I've made to you ad nauseam earlier in the thread. Good night.

[p]Where did I ever say that any reward increase Rangers melee CA damage? I dont think I did. Grats on not reading what I wrote.[/p][p]You did give a blanket statement saying rangers dont melee. You never said anything about melee auto attack, you said melee. Period. Let me refresh your memory.[/p][p]

[/p][p]Its your OPINION, that theres no reason to do claymore. However, there are several TOP end guilds that still do their epic rewards when they already have the best weapons in the game off contested. Do your epic quests or not, I really dont care. Im going to do mine regardless of the reward Im going to get. There are other classes that do their epic quests and never use their epic reward. Whats the difference? The sole difference is, you feel slighted that you didnt get a weapon that you feel was specific enough for your class. You did get a weapon useable by your class. Dont like the reward? Dont do the quest. There doesnt have to be a "well what do I get out if it" mentalility to justifiy doing a quest. Ive done countless quests that resulted in rewards that I either transmuted or just out right sold.[/p]

FWIW, I haven't done any of the prismatics specifically because of the risk v. reward thing. I don't care if they give us something or not in RoK. I'm surely not going to invest my time in camping mobs and doing endless quest chains to get a piece of gear that will become obsolete not too long after I get it. I did the epic quests in EQ1 and I know that I'll never get the time I wasted back. Personally, I'd rather spend my time painting my house or mowing my lawn than ever go through that hell again. For those of you who have the time and patience to do these quests, I tip my hat. More power to you. I think arguing about this is silly though.

Harry@Venekor wrote:

[p]Assuming SoE structures the RoK Epic Weapon quest like the SoD quest, then a "halfway decent" bow IS all you will get. The non-raiding rangers and/or those raiding rangers who are basically raiding content one expansion in the past will get the legendary quest reward that will be the RoK equivalent to the Raincaller because all they will be able to do is the non-RoK raid portion of the quest.[/p][p]If you aren't happy with the Raincaller in EoF, why do you think you will be happy with a Legendary RoK Epic Quest Bow? You won't be.[/p][p]And those raiders who are capable of obtaining the fabled upgrade of the bow won't be happy either, since most likely any fabled bow dropping from an RoK raid mob will be better than that fabled quest bow. If it's even an upgrade from the top end EoF bows (and it might not be), it would only be used until one of the undoubtedly better RoK fabled bows dropped.[/p][p]So a bow, in my opinion would make no ranger of any playstyle happy. The legendary version would be too weak for those who can't get fabled RoK bows, and the fabled version would be considered too weak by those that can. So we'd have an epic weapon quest reward that no ranger will use. Makes no sense to me.[/p][p]Better to have a melee weapon that gives bonuses to ranged attacks that all rangers will use precisely because we do NOT need the best melee weapon (either legendary or fabled). [/p]

[p]Wait a minute, aren't they removing exactly that from melee weapons? Aren't they calling it a bug and putting in a fix? So you think the solution is to ask for another melee weapon that procs off ranged attacks just so they can nerf it again? No thanks. Or saying to give a bonus to ranged attacks, yet melee weapons will be subject to all classes that can use them, not just rangers?[/p][p]Providing for the lack of evidence and speculation that there will even be better fabled ROK bows, won't those same raiders be subject to the RNG? Do those rangers who haven't gotten the better bows yet, want to be stuck with the same bows they have now? In the meantime, they won't be getting invited to raids because their DPS isn't up to par, so how are they going to climb that ladder, if its yanked out from under them! How about a bow with ranged bonuses? Why are rangers saying that fighting over the scraps of melee weapons strictly for the stats they provide, is a good thing?[/p][p]Lets look at the track record as it stands now, and project what might be coming.[/p][p]handcrafted t8 bow. following the stats of every other handcrafted item, this will be purely trash, and hardly worth a serious rangers coin to buy, unless they absolutely have nothing better. More than likely, not as good as a t7 mastercrafted one.[/p][p]Mastercrafted t8 bow. Marginally better, and a definite upgrade probably over t6 legendary. It should be at least, but who knows. It will be subpar to the best t7 bows that drop in the game now. Bet on it. I can hope I'm wrong.[/p][p]Treasured t8 bows. Can't be putting the woodworkers out of business, these will have mixed stats, or something, to make them less attractive in some ways. Bet on it. More attractive to nonscouts or transmuters.[/p][p]Legendary t8 bows. Two words. Extremely rare. these will be difficult to get, and probably only available to the best raiding guilds around. And RNG of course.[/p][p]Fabled t8 bows. Pure speculation. Won't know till one gets discovered.[/p][p]So asking for a quest line, with a specific bow reward, even available to nonrangers, isn't really such a big deal. Having it fall somewhere in between the last quest that rewards a bow at 58, the raincaller(heritage quest available to all), and just below the extremely rare raid drops that will be in t8 following SOE's standard progression, IS important. Noone is asking that it be handed out like government cheese. Most rangers would be more than happy to work hard to achieve such a reward. Certainly it will have a level restriction, like every weapon in the game. Certainly, SOE could put better bows of fabled quality in new loot tables. They probably will. Its not like we are asking for group buffs, or out-of-class abilities, for crying out loud! [/p][p]If a poll was taken of every single ranger playing the game today, which would they rather have, a new melee weapon or a new bow, can you honestly say the majority would pick a melee weapon? When 90% of our CA's are ranged, and 40% of our DPS comes from bow auto attack? I think the majority woul;d clearly cry BOW![/p][p] [/p]

Harry@Venekor wrote:

[p]I was gonna direct quote from the previous post, but I hate the way it leaves boxes.. so bear with me here. Im only going to comment on the highlighted parts.[/p]

[p]Fabled rewards should only come from raids. Period. So asking for an epic bow, should mean you have to RAID to get it. Usually, this means a raid zone... Usually. And most epic quests lead you into raid zones anyways. I can see the connection for a raid zone and an epic reward.[/p]

[p]Since when is raincaller not easy? Its an x2 thats easily one grouped. It might be more difficult for players in handcrafted gear, but in no way would this be considered a difficult quest. It can be finished in a day, and yeilds a fabled bow. Granted a tier lower... but for the work? meh.[/p]

[p]Sorry, but you're wrong again here. The fact is that after the DoF to KoS gear progression disaster, Devs swore that KoS to EoF would be Fabled to Fabled. Meaning, you wouldnt replace your fabled gear with legendary, or treasured gear like most fabled toons had to do when KoS launched. The outcry for a real working progression was strong, and thats just what you get with RC... Fabled to Fabled upgrades.[/p][p]As for wearing the same gear til you hit 80... well, if the progression is Fabled to Fabled, like its SUPPOSED TO BE for progression reason... then yeah, I suspect alot of us might find ourselves in the same fabled KoS or EoF gear that we have now.[/p][p]Edit: [/p][p]Had to add in "fabled" in front of gear, while talking about gear progression.[/p]

[p]I'd just like to point out that no where have I suggested that such quests for fabled rewards not require a raid. SoD requires a raid, and Claymore a number of them. And of course, all of these questlines previously have also required raids. [/p][p]This problem does not really exist for non-raiders. We do very well in single groups, and things die too fast there for it to really matter very much. The problem is one of progression, wherein we do not gear up at the same time as every other class does, and wherein we are subject to RNG from mobs with a huge, huge loot table. This is not coming from someone who has only raided these zones once or twice and is annoyed she hasn't seen a drop yet. This is coming from someone who has raided these zones quite regularly for a year, and of the three bows that drop in zones the raid forces I go with are capable of doing with regularity, I have seen one drop. One. Ichorstrand. [/p][p]The raid force I'm running with is not the first or the second I've been with since hitting level 70. What happened with the others? Simple. Everyone got their upgrades from these zones while I was still waiting to even see mine drop. Eventually, my DPS in comparison to everyone else's was low enough as to not justify a raid slot. [/p][p]They progressed. I didn't.[/p][p]All I'm asking for is the choice of a bow reward. All I want the quality of that bow to be is appropriate as compared to the quality of all the other rewards from those quests. Legendary to legenday, fabled to fabled. I understand that for a few posters here, a bow reward would do them no good as they already have better. I understand your raid force is so well geared that it has pretty much outgrown these rewards as well. [/p][p]Neither Claymore nor SoD is easily obtainable for me. It's a lot of work and time, as it should be. But I am at the progression level that would benefit most from these quest rewards. If I was any other class, I would benefit from these rewards. [/p][p]I want to reiterate. It does not matter how many bows are or are not actually in the game, or the ease at which they are currently obtained. The current problems with bow progression are only highlighted by the fact there is no bow reward for these quests. We can argue about archetype rewards until we're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is, even if SOE were only working off of archetypes for these quests (and there is no written in stone rule that says they have to, or for that matter, even are. See the already dead horse that is brawler specific rewards) it's obvious that the intention was to provide something for everyone. Specified individually for every single class? Of course not. But it doesn't NEED to be specified for every single class. If you're a melee scout, you pretty much get the same benefit from the melee weapon selection as every other scout. If you're a healer, the same. If you're a mage, the same. If you're a tank, the same--except for brawlers, who were addressed seperately, as they should be. Could these rewards be more class specific? Of course. But generally the benefits are the same.[/p][p]Except for rangers.[/p][p]As to the argument about not being able to use melee CA's without a melee weapon. I'm sorry. You and I both know that we do not use melee auto attack unless we absolutely have to (IE. we can't get into range for whatever reason. See: dragons). Melee auto attack is the only thing affected by the quality of our melee weapons. As Sadres posted, for all that we use melee for, that is, a backstab and such between cooldowns, we could equip a level 1 dagger and do the same damage. If that theoretical dagger had 30 strength, we'd even have the exact same benefit. [/p][p]Do I have fabled melee weapons? Yep. Two of them. I've raided this part of the T7 progression so long that I've had the opportunity to get two or three times that number of duel wield weapons, without even rolling against other scouts. And yet I'm still waiting to upgrade my bow. I'd say that highlights an issue.[/p]

kartikeya wrote:

[p]I didn't want to comment in this thread again because obviously there are people who think they bring valid arguments while others don't. But I wanted to highlight this and add my view:[/p][p]Yep, it's like that. I've been away for 6 months. Before that, I was in a raid guild that could clear labs at most. I already got 2 fabled dual wields from then and I didn't even have to blow my dkp getting them; the other scouts already had em. Now I'm back, am in an other raid guild that clears all KoS raids. After a couple raids a dual wield dropped in DT. I basicly got it for free. NO ONE WANTED IT! Yeah, there's the mellee vs. ranged progression...[/p][p]Now, add to that that I still see mages, brawlers and even fighters still using their Claymore weapons. For me that means there are some things wrong with the value of those rewards to different classes.[/p]