You are correct that if Furies didn't exist (or any easier-soloing priest really, not just them specifically) that this would be a non-issue, but that doesn't mean that we can ignore that they ARE there either, as it proves that our strength penalties are unjustified. What I mean is, that if Furies didn't exist, then we as a community would be more likely to accept that low DPS and difficult soloing were the inherent penalties to playing a priest. We get a certain set of benefits (healing), and therefore we need to take a corresponding set of penalties for such. There would still likely be some segments still pushing for easier soloing, as they would argue via the "soloing should be somewhat fun for all" perspective, but generally people would be more accepting of the trade-off. But once you add in another priest with close-to-all of our benefits, and much less of our weaknesses, the whole picture changes. We look vastly inferior in relation to them. Thus while we may be no worse off than under a system in which they don't exist, we feel hard done by, as we get the low DPS, but we no longer see it as justified. We're not penalized anymore becuase of our great benefit (healing), but rather for no reason at all, as another fully-capable healer doesn't have the same handicap. This is completely independant of the related problems, like competing for group spots. Because of the relative lack of healers overall, there isn't really competition for healers for group spots: they need whatever they can get. But if the market were reversed, and groups could be choosy, that would be an additional problem for us. It manifests itself a bit now, though much more marginally. However, as I stated, the central point of what would be accepted if Furies never existed - that low damage is the trade-off for healing - is now gone. We are simply less capable for no consistent reason. There now exists a double-standard. So Ken, while you have a point that if Furies weren't here that we would probably be more accepting, the fact that they DO exist show that the penalties themselves are unjustified, and we are merely less of a class than them, and not merely focused differently.
Oh, fer the love o' all that's blue n' fuzzy! Templars are a sidekick class. Period. We excel when we are grouped. Period. This is the way it is. If SOE sees that this is how it should be, so be it. This game is under constant change. Just like the rest of the real world. Let's let it die, for cryin' out loud.
Yet there are many many examples of changes that have been made to the game because of the will of the players not the vision of the design team. I have no problem grouping and being a side-kick as long as I have a role to play in that group. If my something to do is following a group of players around that never actually need to be healed because level appropriate content is so easy all the mobs are dead before I can even get off a smite then no thank you. Now if a whole bunch of Templar players don't like the way things currently are and complain about it (or whine as some see it) what does it matter to you? If the vocal Templars that are currently unhappy manage to get things changed how would this negatively impact you? So why not just let them be?
A whole bunch? Seems like the exact same 20 or so people to me. Again and again and again. It's the silent majority I speak for. But, as in politics, it's always a small group of rabble-rousers that get the most face time because they scream the loudest. Time for us to set the standard and quit catering to the special interest groups. Seriously, you paid for the month. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to pay again and again. Go somewhere else. I know, I know. You're looking at the time invested. Well, seriously, you're not married to this game. You won't have to pay alimony, or child support. You don't have to stay in this marriage. It's a difficult decision, I understand, but why continue being unhappy? Templars are not likely going to change within the next two months at the very least. Why make yourself miserable? Unless you are the type that likes to complain (and that in itself is a whole other issue), just move on. It is a game. It is ONLY a game. Please, for your own mental and physical well-being, go find something that makes you happy.
hey Melf; that's why so many of us are also leveling Alts! Doesn't mean we don't want Templar's fixed. Now where's the Kegger!!!! Did I hear someone say we were going to drink beer and have a good old fashioned street brawl? Oh wait; it was a more civil gathering. Some sort of Fan Faire or something.. hehe.
I myself have 5 alts I am also levelling. Keep the beer, though. Just makes me sick. Now, a street brawl? I have a Louisville Slugger...
I think it very unlikely that you speak for the silent majority. In fact, I could just as easily say that the number of players who keep posting over and over that Templars are fundamentally okay is far less than 20. You have your experiences I have mine. In my experience everyone who once was a Templar or healer has either quit or rerolled an alt. I am the sole remaining active Templar in my guild. So to me, the silent majority has already spoken. In fact we have so few active healers now that it is becoming a problem for the guild. Not so with other classes. We have lots of rangers and summoners for example. As I have stated before, when I play my Templar in hardcore groups and raids I always have a good time. When I play in casual groups or try to solo I hate it. If the majority of the content of the game were designed around the first type of experience then I would have no issues at all. Its really is a shame thats not the case. I never envisioned a Templar/Priest as a solo player. It is the content that SoE has chosen to include in the game that has forced me to think that way. Yet still you avoid the central question. What difference does it make to you? If by some miracle Templars manage to get some changes made to the class by posting their displeasure on the forums or through /feedback or whatever mechanism they choose, how does this affect you? If they manage to get an increase in Templar DPS or a change in balance the way they want why do you care? If you feel Templars are okay as they are then it seems to me you get a great bonus. Not only do you get the Templar you always had that you are completely satisfied with but now you also get some extra goodies. Thank you for your advice but no need to worry. Once the balance between fun and tedium tips unfavourably I assure you will I will have no qualms about moving on. In the meantime, I will continue to enjoy those parts of the game I like and 'whine' about those parts I don't on the bizarre off chance something will actually be done about it. Message Edited by Copperhand on 02-14-200610:50 AM
I never said I was completely satisfied. Yes, there are issues. I have stated them. But I am not spending my day posting here whining incessantly about it. That's where the issue here is. The Mods are getting torked off about the flame wars (as this seems to be degenerating into as well), and the Templar board is becoming the joke of the entire Forums because of this. Play or do not. If you don't like it, move on. If you have constructive criticism, post it. It's welcome. But the whining, and there is a difference, is not welcome. It is counter-productive. No one is going to listen to it. That's probably half the reason few devs respond here. They don't feel like wading through the post after post of personal attacks and generalized whining. They pay attention to the well thought out posts. But it sure looks like every single post here that begins with an idea to change something ends up locked due to flaming. If you want to make a change, do so in an adult fashion. And remember - every person is entittled to their own opinion. If you don't agree with it, too bad. Quit trying to sway everyone else to your way of thinking. It doesn't work. Don't argue against an opinion. That is a personal attack by definition. Opinion is not fact and cannot be right or wrong. This is not just about copper, not my intention at all. This is the general consensus of what is going wrong here.
I've never stated, nor do I believe that Templars don't "need more tweaking". That's a bit of a misinterpretation of what I'm saying, and more along the line of suggesting or implying that I feel Templars "are just fine". I've never stated that, and if I believed it, I likely wouldn't bother trying to maintain a list at the top of this forum specifically asking for changes to the class. However, evolving though the overall design philosophy may be, it's been consistent all along in certain regards: classes are balanced around groups; classes are balanced around general archetypes; classes are balanced around specific group roles; soloing is not a primary concern for balance. Yes, the designers can change their minds, and often do. However, this is typically only after evidence is presented or found to indicate a need or requisite for such a change. You want to convince the developers - not me - that your argument holds water, if you want to enact change. Arguments claiming the class is "broken" is not presenting evidence, and quite likely may be outright ignored by developers who feel differently. Arguments claiming the class is useless or not desired may likewise earn no recognition, unless you happen to find a developer who already agrees with you. These arguments an others like them are emotionally based, and as such, aren't as likely to gain the momentum necessary to enact change. Don't tell the developers that the design is wrong. Don't just say that the class is broken, and then back it up with pseudoevidence which may or may not be accurate just to push an agenda. These aren't stupid people you're trying to convince, and chances are that they'll see through such ploys. If you have real evidence, then present it. If you have real arguments, then present them. It's what I've attempted to do with the Holy Books of Templar. It's what others have done with collecting spell lists or testing content, such as Caethre's side by side comparison. It's what still others are doing by presenting tools to help us gather the data, such as Athian's parsing tool. Just saying that I said something I did not say, or that I'm presenting myself in a way I am not, is only going to illicit a response from myself on why I feel you're incorrect in saying so. That leads to an endless cycle of defense and attack, and eventually leads only to moderation. Back away from the assumptions, and look upon the facts. Factually speaking, I've never stated nor do I believe that Templars do not need tweaking.
First off, I do get it. Why would you assume I do not. Why would you attempt to provoke me further by again stating something like that? Secondly, what does it matter if I get it or not? If I get it, what does that do for you? Does that change Templars? Does that one change finally convince the developers that "well, if they can convince Kendricke, I guess I better jump onboard, too"? Convincing me does nothing for your goals. Speaking of goals, what is your goal? Do you want to solo better or heal better? You just stated that you'd be happy with either, but that makes no sense to me personally. Perhaps you could clarify this for me. If you heal better, how will this help you solo? If you don't care about soloing, then why would you care about soloing better? Either you want one, or you want the other, or you want both. However, you seem to indicate that you'd be happy with one OR the other. Do you truly feel that Templars can't heal enough as it is? Honestly, can you perhaps name a non-raiding situation where you're having trouble keeping groups standing? I'd love to share tactics with you if that's the case (this IS the Templar discussion forum, after all). If you're not having trouble keeping groups standing, then why would you want even more healing? So, either you solo or you do not. You either have trouble healing or you do not. Working on one will not helping the other. Then we're back here after the fact, posting arguments on why one "fix" or the other wasn't enough.
Guild membership caps (which discourage alternates or inactive members) No global chat channels Official forums are being removed at launch, with fansites encouraged to pick up the slack Low use of instancing; moving quest and loot targets to be generally contested An official statement that class balance is not a priority Sounds lovely, doesn't it? It also sounds familiar... Dark Age of Camelot is going to DESTROY Everquest - just you wait. Oh yeah, wait till Shadowbane comes out. EVERYONE will play Shadowbane! Horizons is going to kill SOE. Blizzard's going to show SOE the door. Once World of Warcraft is released, SOE will file for bankruptcy. I can't wait for Guild Wars. That will be the death knell for SOE. Message Edited by Kendricke on 02-14-200611:50 AM
To be honest anything is better then the current crap that is happening. it cant be hard to understand, customers want something. customers pay for this service. do what customers want. called good customer service Its been whined about a million and one times. but i wanna whine more. the amount of times i have been raiding to use both direct heals, and my reactive only to be waiting on recast. what shall i do ??? DPS? oh wait i dont have any! Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on 02-14-200611:55 AM
I want free food. Any resturaunt that requires me to pay for food is not providing me what I want. I bought a beer. That means I should get free food. That's bad customer service.
ok that is a stupid remark and you know it. and no i aint gonna comment if you wish to throw an insult my way. WE pay for the copy of the game, WE then pay for the service, a servive that should not be limited to certain people, a service that should not be limited to a certain class. but while some classes crash and burn, others are getting everything they could wish for and more. Ive read through loads of posts on here and both agreed with them and not. But i wouldnt in anyway be bothered if SOE did one thing, just one, and i would be completly satisfied, and im pretty sure most others templars would aswell. new heal - seperate chain. i mean d amn, they could even put the splitpaw heal on a new chain. and i would over the moon. But when your in a situation where you are litrally no use while waiting on recast its stupid. im sure you and most people realise a few seconds in a raid mean alot, so to be waiting 3 secs+ for heals, then for it to happen again and again is pathectic. add them seconds up over the whole battle. Oh, and before someone says it, it is not how you do it, your tank starts droppin, you use both direct heals, reactive. then wait, there is no other way to do it if your tank gets a series of hard blows. Message Edited by DisturbedMaggot on 02-14-200612:09 PM
Uhmmm interesting. Well to be honest I was not my intention to either flame you or try to ram my opinion down your throat. If thats the way it was perceived than all I can say is it wasn't my intention. The one thing that you said (or implied) that I agree with is that the Templar forum really isn't going anywhere fast. It is the same stuff being rehashed over and over again. So I agree, it is time to stop participating in these forums in favour of doing something more constructive. Post Edited. The remainder was completely inappropriate. My apologies, its been a bad day. However, that still doesn't give me the right to attack people here. Again my apologies. I wish you the best of luck. Message Edited by Copperhand on 02-14-200612:30 PM
Why would I feel compelled to insult you? I have nothing against you. WE pay for the copy of the game, WE then pay for the service, a servive that should not be limited to certain people, a service that should not be limited to a certain class. but while some classes crash and burn, others are getting everything they could wish for and more. Ive read through loads of posts on here and both agreed with them and not. But i wouldnt in anyway be bothered if SOE did one thing, just one, and i would be completly satisfied, and im pretty sure most others templars would aswell. new heal - seperate chain. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] they could even put the splitpaw heal on a new chain. and i would over the moon. But when your in a situation where you are litrally no use while waiting on recast its stupid. im sure you and most people realise a few seconds in a raid mean alot, so to be waiting 3 secs+ for heals, then for it to happen again and again is pathectic. add them seconds up over the whole battle. [/QUOTE] There's more to raiding than just spam healing. I appreciate the frustration, but raids are about more than individual efforts. ...and yet, night after night, raid Templars manage to succeed in spite of your apparently grim expectations. Now, again, how do you feel that Vanguard will solve this issue?
No, that was a flame. My point was simply that if you aren't happy, and don't think your voice is being heard, don't rile yourselves up over it. No one will listen. I have not made a single personal attack. Especially not against you dierctly, yet that is what you have just done. Way to perpetuate the stereotype, eh? BTW - THAT was a personal attack. Play the game. Do not play the game. Either way, stressing yourself out over it is not constructive, or healthy.
I suppose I'll answer since asked but my posts have been quite clear. option a) If the only thing SOE will let me have is DPS to achieve Archetype balance (implied by the all priests healing about equally approch today) then the implication of that choice is solo better. option b) If SOE will allow us to have reasonably better healing to compensate for the lack of DPS I choose heal better (I chose Templar to be a dedicated healer in accordance with the purpose of a Templar and the class descriptions so that's my first choice). I prefer option (b). My posts have been pretty clear on those options. /shrug The other option I have in my posts is to achieve archetype balance by reducing DPS for the member of the priest archetype that has high DPS today; but that is not preferred. Sony can choose to balance in accordance with whatever their vision is at the moment. Based on the limited impact of achievement points it's equally clear we'll be just as out of balance after KoS. It's clear it is not balanced today on any standard.
