Sigh, I never said you were wrong. And it seems that YOU never remember those quotes when you write something sinec you always remember the ones which say 'this game is balanced for grouping' from late 2004 while there are more recent posts that contradict those. To me it seems you are flamebaiting.
Tim, now you're just degenerating this thread into another flamewar. Why bother? Your post will just be removed, same with anyone else who flamebaits. There really isn't a point.
I don't think I do. Apparently the question is why you think that. I don't flame. I don't get into flamewars. I certainly don't consider you, Timaarit, and a few others as "almost every member of this community", either. Let it go. This discussion is about Templar Acheivements. What subject related to that would you like to discuss? Any builds you'd like Reznor, Supernova, or I to test on Beta? What numbers would you like to see?
The moderators are painfully aware of the ongoing drama on the Templar Forum. The thing is, we don't take sides. We'll get an abuse report from one person pointing at another and 5 minutes later we'll get an abuse report from the other "side". Everyone here is entitled to their opinion, but keep it civil please! You aren't helping the case for your class if the actual constructive feedback the developers need to understand your issues is buried under 50 tons of bickering with each other. There are some really strong personalities on this forum. I'd like to encourage everyone to resist the urge to hit the reply button if you see something that ticks you off and instead just report the post as abuse. When posters report a post as abuse but still respond to it to one-up the first post, it gets pretty hard to untangle. I and the other moderators are reluctant to go on a post locking/removal spree here (we don't want to overmoderate!). Help us help you by stopping the circle of one-upmanship. Agree to disagree and drop issues once in awhile as not everyone will necessarily agree with everything you personally believe.
OOC. On the one hand, I know you are completely correct in this, and it is human nature too, for developers to act as you describe. If I were a developer and heard of the forum being a mass arguing ground, I too would be reluctant to appear here. So I can sympathize, because, who wouldn't? And yet on the other, what are we to do? I hope you realize, I love this game and genuinely care about my class. Each time I see yet another person leaving because of feeling worthless or such, it makes me wonder, why is this not looked at? And each time I log in my Templar and can't manage something in a reasonable timeframe just because of my class, but can swap to my Fury and can then do it, knowing they can heal the same, it makes me feel the same worthlessness. I know, if the developers walked a mile in my shoes, or the shoes of many casual playstyle Templars, they would see this, because it is very obvious very quickly. And then I come here, and join with my brethren to let you know, and feel put down by a few implying we are "playing wrong", or so it comes across. And we know where it leads from there. I am at a loss, sir. All we Templars can do is hope you can summarize the good hidden in all this nonsense, and pass that part on for us, for we cannot all do it alone. Thank you for your post. It had some sentences in it that were heartening to read. I won't pretend, many of us are losing some hope, despite our brave faces on these boards. Felishanna.
The drama on the templar board would most likely calm down, if next too 4 Mod's popping in every now and then to correct certain members (which you should do as that's your function) a developer dropped in every now and then to give us some feedback or to explain something. I don't think this sounds as too much to ask. ps. yes english is not my native language so give me a grammatical/ structured break. :smileyvery-happy:
You're not going to like this, but it needs to be said: Both sides can't be right. So either one is wrong, or both are wrong. There's no other possibilities. Obviously I believe I'm right, as do those I argue against, but agreeing to disagree is in this case is agreeing with my opponents, as their proposed actions ARE to do nothing. So keeping quiet isn't an option from our perspective, as "no news is good news" when it comes to class problems. The only things that can defuse the situation are specific dev statements on what is going to change, or WHY it does not, or actual changes to the game itself that drastically improve the Templar class (no, the Achievements system does not qualify as drastic improvement when the others in our archetype get as good or better, as we remain behind). Until either of those happen, the Templar forums won't change.
I believe the point was that regardless of who's "right", we all believe we are right. It's all opinion, and technically speaking the only "right" opinion on the subject from an overall standpoint is SOE's. Otherwise, again, we're all right back to simply believing we've got it right. Agreeing to disagree is the only viable solution in that case. Make your case, and move on. Refute someone else's case. Stand up for your own case. Argue points. Disseminate arguments. Analyze posts. All of that is allowable and then some. The problem comes when we start tearing into each other personally - when we shoot past the points and go for the throat of our opponent. Dissent and discussion are powerful. Calling each other names and trying to dictate who is good/bad/right/wrong as an individual is petty. So yes, agreeing to disagree is not only feasible, it's truly the only real course of action here.
As much as I loved playing this class and hope this new system will address some of the issues we have now i believe we are only being given Achievements and this new expansion as a fix designed to keep us from leaving for an upcoming MMORPG (which TBH i don't think is an issue). Almost everyone i know online has thier sights set on on the future and doesn't even see staying with EQ2 a likelihood. It just disappoints me that the lack of communication has led to this lack of trust in the EQ2 team. For me this is all caused by the issues I see with my Templar. The same lack of communication on issues has lead countless friends to quit. The mantra that just because we are not saying anything doesn't mean we are not aware of you issues is irrelevant. The perception of how devs are dealing with player issues is key and at the moment it could do with more than a little attention. The devs seem to genuinely care about EQ2 which is great but without a little more dialogue with the community, that isn't the impression we are getting. The only people who can stop the flaming are the devs, frustrated people get upset, they get annoyed, i for one don't blame them. :smileysad:
Actually, Smedley announced in January of last year that they were already working on the first two expansions: John Smedley wrote, on January 7, 2005:We plan on releasing 2 expansion packs a year. These expansion packs are going to be large, game altering additions to the game that will be sold both at retail and online via digital download. In the past, we've had one team that would work on an expansion pack, and then move on to the next one. This meant keeping a very fast paced schedule and the expansions smaller in scale due to the timeframe. We are changing the way we do things with EverQuest II. As of now we have two expansion pack teams that are working on different expansions... [/QUOTE] I would also argue that we're seeing Achievements now based on years' worth of feedback coming in from customers who enjoyed the Alternate Advancment system of Everquest as well as players who enjoyed the skill tree system of World of Warcraft.
Maybe. :smileyhappy: When we're too aggressive we please one segment of the community but it also infuriates others. We end up having posters trying to one-up the moderators in their rage about overmoderation and noone wins when that happens. :smileysad: It is much better when communities self-moderate with moderators handling larger issues. When we are faced with moderating what amounts to simple and largely polite disagreement, it puts us in a difficult position where the moderators are perceived as crossing the line by some. I do think Templars could have it much worse. There are many well spoken people here and I just think a few of you need to go out for drinks together at the next Fan Faire! :smileyhappy:
I hate to say it, but Caethre's correct, you don't need to refute EVERY single post that doesn't agree with you point of view. It's harrassment plain and simple, whether or not you see it as such. Would it kill you to not hit the "Reply" button once in a while and let some other voices be heard? We all know how you feel about the many subjects discussed on these boards by now. I read these boards every single day and see plenty of posts I don't agree with. Why don't I post in an effort to get issues with the Templar class addressed? To be honest, it's because I do not have the time to deal with such prolific posters with opposing viewpoints. Were the discussions in the Templar forums more like normal discourse, I just might take part a little more often.
I would also argue that we're seeing Achievements now based on years' worth of feedback coming in from customers who enjoyed the Alternate Advancment system of Everquest as well as players who enjoyed the skill tree system of World of Warcraft. [/QUOTE] I agree, i wasn't debating either of those statements.
lol I think that a Templar table would be very "lively." But Ken, the point remains: either we're balanced against the other priests, or we're not. I don't mean specific aspects, but overall. And I will continue trying to convince your of such, or barring that, at the least make sure that others are not convinced by you into ignoring our class's problems, since then nothing would change.
Factually speaking, there are plenty of posts I don't respond to on a daily basis. Your perception may be otherwise, but that doesn't make it true.
I welcome you trying to convince me. I'm not unmmovable, but just as you feel you're right - so do I. Keep in mind that balance is a tricky thing. What you feel is balanced isn't necessarily what I feel. I feel balance exists in groups. After all, I can cite post after post and interview after interview to support my belief that the game's balance is based firmly in "groupland". Meanwhile, you may personally feel that soloing is out of whack. Now, this isn't to say that I'm disagreeing with that concept, but that I don't feel it's where the balance was meant. I think we're a STRONG grouping class. You may feel otherwise. Who's right? Who's wrong? A lot of the differences in opinion are very much based on two things: personal experience and personal attitudes. Obviously if I'm a generally optimistic person, my outlook is going to sway in that direction. If I log on and find four tells in my chat asking if I'd like to group before my loading screen even finishes up, then I'm not likely to feel we're an undesired class for grouping, then am I? Meanwhile, another Templar might spend hours on LFG trying to solo through content while watching other classes blow through it, all the while wondering what the problem with the class is. That level of personal experience could be based on any number of things, not the least of which is personal playstyles, servers, guilds, playtimes, reputation, and perceptions overall. After all, I've actually joined a group recently where they were "amazed" (their words) to see my locking down adds, and pulling, and healing, and debuffing, and you name it. They'd heard from friends of friends and seen on the forums how "weak" Templars were compared to other priests, and suddenly they had a bonified Templar "fanboi" showing them how much he loves doing what he does night after night (and really, when you love what you're doing, aren't you more likely to be good at it?). We have different approaches on these forums. I'm certainly more stern, arrogant, zealous, and condescending...but what do you expect? I'm a Templar of Marr. I'm actually downright approachable on these forums compared to my Guildchat (ask any Legionnaire how "warm and fuzzy" I am, and be prepared for laughter). I've been playing the stern orator for years now, and frankly, it's a role I'm comfortable in and enjoy online. (Since FanFaire was brought up, ask how many developers and players were outright surprised to see what I'm like in the more "real world" - because I think I just about gave a few of them heart attacks the first time they heard me use vulgar language). The worse possible mistake anyone on these forums could do would be to confuse the online persona with the real world person; or alternatively to confuse the arguer with the argument. We're all very passionate about what we want - so much so that we take any attack on our points as a perceived attack on ourselves personally. We get emotionally invested in our positions and posts, to the point that we defend to the death any possible criticism upon the ideas we present, as if we ourselves had been attacked. Agreeing to disagree is the only real respectful thing to do. Continue to argue and discuss, but avoid bickering and attacks. We're all Templars. We all care. We all have desires for what we want the class to be. No one's arguing that. No one should be arguing against each other directly, either. So, as much as I appreciate that you feel differently than I, what I'd truly appreciate is a good ole' handshake and a desire to convince me without belittling me or attempting to silence me. Show me why you're right, or why you think my arguments are wrong, and you'll earn my ear. Tell me why I'm personally a bad person, and you'll earn only my disdain. Honestly, could you expect any differently?
I'm sure there are plenty of posts you don't reply to. I just can't recall one pertaining to Templars that happened to oppose your point of view. But granted, I'll be pragmatic and concede that it's a perception issue and not factual. It only SEEMS as if you reply to every post. Bottom line, symantics aside, consider this a polite request to let others be heard. Agree to disagree if that's what you really want. As I said, I'm sure most Templars are aware of your opinions by now. By all means discuss issues as you see fit, I'm simply asking that it be within reason. A little moderation goes a long way and I truly believe the Templar community as a whole would be better off for it. Your posts are well thought out and you argue your points very well, and thus seem like a reasonable person. Certainly you can see that even though your posts are as such, when taken to excess they can be cause for strife.
