Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-cr0wangel, Jun 27, 2005.
Play style has nothing to do with it, and your attempt to yet again divert the whole point of my commentary is duly noted and promptly ignored...
Try re-reading my post and how it addresses your concerns and maybe you will understand what several of us have tried to impart to you.
Here it is for you spelled out in as few words as possible:
You aren't a great tank. (Couldn't tell you if you are good or bad, but you don't stand out obviously)
Roleplaying has nothing to do with it.
People choose the person with the best gear because you don't demonstrate anything that would show your skill will be worth more than your gear.
Message Edited by Padien on 07-07-2005 12:09 PM
Did you play the game with me? I am on lucan dlere server. What is the name of your character and server? If you grouped with me, you can judge. If you never grouped with me, your judgement have no value. I don't know if I grouped with you, you did not even post your name and server...
I believe: people choose the person with the best gear because they want to win, but it goes wrong, when the only thing that matter is to win.
I play on Befallen.
I can tell you aren't a great tank because of the way people you even know treat you. If people who know how you tank still measure up your gear to no comers, then they don't have full confidence in you, which means you lack something. It doesn't mean you suck, but it does mean you aren't a stand out tank.
When I first played this game, I played with my illusionist, Padian. I also grouped with Hiro. Everyone who ever grouped with Hiro regarded him as the best or close to it. No one questioned his gear, no one cared what level he was. He was the tank, period. He earned respect from the players around him.
Later I made a gnome zerker, Zanten. Sometime in the early 20's I started grouping a lot and found myself well liked. At first I just put together groups from random people. As I grouped with them, I kept getting the same responses. "Wow, this is an awesome group." proceeded by tells of people telling me I was a great tank and all sorts of things. After a while I got a lot of tells of people who wanted to group with me. From every healer I grouped with and many others. Including people who I booted from the group because I didn't like a few of their behavior issues (and proceeded to beg me for a month to join up with me.)
The thing is, I wore a lot of green armor, I had low HP and was a gnome to begin with. There are couple of other tanks I've seen who also get the same respect. They do it because of their leadership and ability to perform the roles of tank. Not because they have uber gear, although a good tank will usually find good gear along the way eventually. They are respect because they are great tanks.
But here is the thing. Only about 5% of the tanks, if that, will get that sort of respect. Most tanks just don't demonstrate exceptional abilities.
Dispite all your words, you only show that the people around you do not give you the respect a great tank will get. You obviously aren't a great tank.
I don't mean to be rude, but you keep going round in circles ignoring the many subtle hints people have left and you need the straight hard facts. You aren't Great.
In the low levels it could work, I agree. But have green armor and low HP at level 50 and you get toasted. This is a fact, however cool you are, if you have bad gear you can't tank once you get high level.
Actually, by the time you get high level, buffs, debuffs and heals play a much larger role than your gear in most situations - it's completely possible to tank all but a few encounters completely naked. Sure, it's not efficient and you'll make the rest of your group burn more power, but the point is a gnome zerker in green armour will do perfectly fine in most cases, as long as he knows what he's doing...
(Actually, wasn't that the point of your original post? I think I missed where you changed your tune?)
Posting out loud on the public forum I am not a good tank is being rude. I don't believe I am not a good tank, I believe people with who I play with value more the numbers. Is not possible that some players are dumb and value only the gear? -sigh- (In a group this weekend, someone who always choose the tank for gear / HP told me: "you know I am healer, I am DPS", does that give you the idea?) Some players choose by gear only and this is dumb. They don't choose the right tank to the do job because they check the numbers only. You think their judgement is right and I am not great, however I think their judgement is wrong and show a lack of knowledge (healer are not DPS).
He didn't say you are "not a good tank" - he said "I can tell you aren't a great tank". There is a world of a difference between "not good" and "not great". I don't know what it is that you are lacking in this department (Padien gave some suggestions), but my guess is your friends tell you it's a choice based on gear / HP because that sounds nicer than "he tanks better than you".
But whatever the reason is, I'm sure that if you talk to your friends about it, they'd be happy to let you be the MT if that's what you want - and if they won't let you play how you want in the game then why are you playing? (or at least, why are you playing in that group?)
You've been posting over and over about how people only value armor while we've given you the hint many times that people don't value armor only. Many value the skill and leadership of the tank. Dispite many examples given, displite reasoning with you for a page and a half, you still want to blame your problems on other people.
I know when things are close, the person with the better gear is picked, but when one tank clearly stands out better than the next in his ability to tank and run the group, he will be picked first.
Like I said at the end of the last post. I didn't come here to be rude, but your denial has to end somewhere, and I got tired of being nice and watch you fight it.
And when I said "The thing is, I wore a lot of green armor, I had low HP and was a gnome to begin with." That is past tense as the word "wore" suggests. However, even at 50, I still have a piece or 2 of green armor and some older jewelery as well, but that still doesn't stop people who have grouped with me a few times to want me to be MT even when there is another level 50 guardian or zerker in full ebon armor.
Absorbing damage is only part of the equation. Fast pace, fast reflexes to get adds and general leadership skills to lessen the chance of dying are more important 95% of the time except on some raids.
Message Edited by Padien on 07-11-2005 11:20 AM
There is much tactic in hitting a taunt button. This is a gear based game.
On a raid, perhaps that's all that you have to do, but there is a lot more to being a good tank than hitting the taunt button. Though it is funny that hitting that button seems very challenging to a lot of tanks.
As a tank you are responsible for keeping the flow of the group, making sure the healers have power, and pulling as fast as possible when they do. You also have to find a path through a dungeon so that you don't get adds too often, and be very aware of possible adds to prevent problems. You must also be quite aware when there is an add so you can taunt it. Heck, there are a few cases when knowing not to taunt and let another member take a few hits so that the damage is spread around and the healers can keep you alive as needed.
Mostly what makes a good tank good is his ability to lead and be aware. On raids, maybe you are right, but not so on normal experience groups. That or there are a lot of tanks who just don't know how to hit that taunt.
I believe, the best of the best is not needed to succeed in everquest, but people want the best because it make it easier, they want more than they need because they absolutly want to win (and this concern every classes not just tanks). In others words, I believe players in everquest use a bomb to squash a fly, because they want minimum risk and maximum rewards.
That's exactly what I am asking myself... I will try to group with new people, to see how it goes.
I will give you an example that might clear up a bit of this for the OP.
Out on my trubador in TS in the other day with my ranger buddy. We start to form a group up. We pick the first tank we can find and grab a healer and wizzy. We then procede to all meet up so we can start to hunt.
When we meet up I did a double take on the tank. The tank was a paladin wearing..gasp leather armor! I was like what is the dude doing...So we go ahead with the hunting ( In my mind and as group leader I am already looking for another tank ). I asked the tank 3 times in tells if he realized he was wearing leather armor. No responce. We get into a few pulls and this guy couldn't hold aggro at all. And he got hit for a ton everytime the mobs did hit him. I was taking less damage from mob hits then he was. So did bad equipment equal a bad tank and bad player? Yes it did. We as a group adjusted. We started to split the pulls. We let the tank take one mob and the ranger would kite one and I would tank the last one or two mobs. It worked as we had a good healer but the job was harder on the healer.
Soon I found another tank LFG. I invited that tank to group. Now that tank came in and had plate armor all store bought not crafted but atleast it was plate. He took over tanking and we moved over to giants doing the ^^ herioc giants with no problem. And the guy that was wearing leather stayed in the group and was a good secondary tank he warded the other tank at the right times and did other things well as an off tank through a heal or two out there and other things. The new tank that came in wasn't a great tank but was average could do his job and keep the mobs on him and pull and position said mob properly. He was not using everything he had to keep aggro effeciently but did keep it. And his pulls would bring extras at times as his situational awareness was not where it could have been. But for the healer not having to heal anyone else but him and he not taking tons of damage from every mob. Made the whole hunting time go more smoothly. Later when I asked him why he had not gotten crafted armor or even a few of the HQ pieces of armor he said he didn't know about HQ's and that he used most his money on skill upgrades. So was forced to buy cheap. I later hooked him up with an armor crafting friend of mine and he got some new armor that was better.
So in this instance gear did make the tank. And this will generally be the case. But as you can see neither guy was kept from tanking but one was preferable to the other in both skill and gear. And had I gotten another friend of mine to get away from the crafting table and bring out his tank both would have been put on off tanking duty due to a better tank being around. Both in skill and equipment.
Equipment of the right level will usally indicate someone that at the very least knows that good gear helps and the right gear even if it has to be cheap is better then the wrong kind of armor. And considering that is a basic knowledge anyone should pick will tend to indicate thier knowledge of the game as well.
Another example I just thought of for you. A guild member of mine plays a paladin and I have a paladin, my paladin is about 2 levels higher then his. But he is full feysteel vs my feyiron. We both go out to help with Cove of decay for some guild members that need it. I defer to him and let him main tank. Even tho I have more hit points and few more abilities then he does. And most would rate me slight better skilled player then he is. But his mitigation is better then mine by along way with the full feysteel. And I know his skill is good enough for the fights we will have in here. So I let him MT. Why? Because it will be better for the group over all. He will require less healing from damage due to mitigation. And I know he can tank well enough for the situation at hand.
Now a bit later we just go to start doing xp runs. Now I take over as tank for the reason his mitigation doesn't mean as much on mobs that are 4-5 levels over him. That level diffrence means more then the mitigation numbers as mobs closer to your level will do less damage then mobs further over your level. The mobs we were fighting where all red con to him but only orange yellow to me. So even tho he had higher mitigation the mob base damage on him was way higher then the mob base damage on me. He had no problem giving up main tanking to me at this point as I had no problem giving up to him before.
Like I said we are pretty equally skilled so this work well doing the switching when needed and for what was best for the group in each situation. When you have never grouped with someone as far as you know both are equally skilled. So gear depending on what your doing will be a large factor.
If all you want to do is be the MT in a group then your better off to form your own groups and build them up and don't invite any other tanks in or only ones lower level then you. This will not make you a great group leader but will atleast assure your the MT all the time.
To be a great group leader you have to base your decisions on jobs based on both skill and equipment and that means sometimes you have to even give up your favored position to someone that is better for that situation.
There is much tactic in hitting a taunt button. This is a gear based game.
You should try being a SK and just hit that taunt button. See what happens to your group then. "Gear based " lol you are funny LOL.
Message Edited by DUNN on 07-21-2005 03:56 PM
It is sad that tanks are judged by thier gear if thier strangers, it's been going on for years in EQ1. Although I play a zerker now, and am often the chosen tank, I played a high elf paladin for the most part and was often not chosen as main tank till I eventually took over after about half an hour of off-tanking multiple mobs better than most tanks could keep one down. Once people get to know how someone plays, they will know who to pick as main tank without carring about gear quite as much. Tanking in my experiance is more about skill than about gear and class; sure a warrior gets more taunts, mitigration, and avoidance than say a shadowknight, but if the warrior is a putz then who wants him in charge of who lives and who dies? An extra heal on the sk may be worth more than the warrior having an extra 300hp and 5% mitigration.
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