Tanks being judged only for their gear

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-cr0wangel, Jun 27, 2005.

  1. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

    I would like to have others opinions from tanks. Something upset me in game and people tell me I take it too personal. It upset me when players judge me for my gear. If you have good gear, they think you are a god like tank, if you have bad gear, you suck. However, the game is not that simple in my opinion.

    I noticed that players (but not all of them) judge tank for their gear (armors, weapons, items). They inspect you, if they see the other tank have more defense or more HP, they refuse to let you tank. They don't take in consideration the player. I know gear is important, it play a major role in tanking, but in my opinion gear is not everything. The player, the level, the skills, the tactics are important too. To make it short, a good player with bad gear is better than a bad player with good gear. Gear help, but if the player is bad and don't know how to use his gear, gear is worthless.

    I need some opinions here please, it seems everyone judge tank by gear and that only gear matter. Maybe I take it too personal, but it upset me when someone says '' Bob have 200 more HP, Bob MT''. -sigh- What is a raw number via a player? I believe a raw number should not be the ONLY reason to choose the MT.
  2. ARCHIVED-ArivenGemini Guest

    Speaking from my inquisitor side... when dealing with two unknown tanks of the same level, gear is it... If I dont know you from adam, I really really want to deal with healing the person with higher mitigation/avoidance.. with a leaning towards mitigation due to how cleric heals work... with my fury I dont mind which of the two is higher... but all things being equal gear is gonna be a large factor with me..

    Once gear is eliminated from the equation, and again dealing with unknown tanks, I prefer berserkers first, guardians second monks and bruisers third and pally/sk fourth... I like the agro control a berserker has by merely breathing, like the great defenses of the guardian and the avoidance of the brawlers.. for my inqusitor pally/sk are harder to heal due to their selfwarding... not to mention the sheer number of them that seem to be in it for the soloability and cheap horse.. :)

    Once I know your style, -then- I can take that into account.. which is why I prefer guild groups over pickup groups... but again back to dealing with two equal level tanks.. once the group gets going and the MT shows he cannot tank it might be time to recommend a change...but until then less mana spent on heals means a faster pull next round..
  3. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

  4. ARCHIVED-ArivenGemini Guest

    So, your definition of fun includes party wipes? Mine sure doesn't..

    I thought I was pretty clear, but let me try a different angle for you. all other factors being equal, as a healer, I want to have to spend as little power as possible to keep the tank alive.. this gives me leeway in case of adds, bad pulls, bad rolls of the random number generator, etc..

    I enjoy a good run at experience, I enjoy the socialization aspect of the game.. heck I even toss in a role play session or two.. but NONE of those includes the concept of having to spam direct heals on a tank that is out of his equipments league... spamming direct heals is a direct path to -me- tanking as a healer..and that is a direct path to party wipe..sure I have good armor as an inquisitor, and yes I have ended up tanking mobs from time to time.. it happens.. but there is a reason I am playing a healer and not a tank.. its to heal and NOT tank... I load up my beserker, monk or guardian (to be) for that fix...

    I want to do the job that I chose, and I want to do it well, efficiently and have the spare time and energy to ENJOY the game..

    Another aspect of chosing someone based on gear.. I honestly cannot feel that a tank who isn't up to par in equipment is up to par in taunts and combat arts.. if he is behind the norm in hardware he is likely behind the curve in keeping the mob on HIM and not ME..

    Yes, you can min/max and have people who go out and get that ebon rare crafted armor.. but can you honestly say that guy isn't doing what he can to maximise his role in the group? Just like -I- am maximising -my- role by getting the best heals, buffs, etc as I can afford... as well as keeping -my- equipment up to date..

    So back to the core, if I dont know you and your tanking style, and I dont know some OTHER tank and HIS tanking style.. I am going to go with first instinct of the guy who has shown to be more interested in doing his job right...

    In fact, when I was behind the curve in equipment on my berserker I -refused- to be main tank until I could catch up.. because it was not fair to my group mates to depend upon me doing my job and have me let them down by not DOING my job..

    It is expensive yes, it is not fair to the person who wants to look all snazzy and flashy yes... but it -works- as a good rule of thumb for unknowns..

    On the other side of the coin, when you DO know someones tanking style, other factors come into play... I have been in groups where the best MT for the job was 3 levels below the highest fighter in group.. and had no way to be at the mitigation level of the upper level fighter.. but due to skill, competance and good gear was better at the job than the higher level tank.. skill is a large factor.. but we have no little guage that shows us that on inspection.. so that doens't come into play in those pickup groups does it?

    So in summation, yes it is about the fun... but fun doesn't include party wipes, extra debt from poor equipment and stress over a crappy group..

    edit: Just saw your question about HP in your response..

    Your original message seemed to be about equipment, not personal HP.. I am not in a lot of raids yet, and as long as my heals work to handle inbound damage sufficiently some variance in HP isn't an issue... I have worked with DE tanks, trolls, ogres, barbarians, humans, dwarves, halflings, gnomes.. etc etc... it isn't all about the HP at that point, it is capacity to reduce inbound damage to where I can deal with it as a healer and skill to keep the mobs attention while the rest of the group does it's job..
    Message Edited by Ariven on 06-27-2005 02:17 PM
  5. ARCHIVED-Buzzle Guest

    Crow, I agree with you 100%. It's sad, but it's true, folks judge a book by its cover EVERY time.

    1- Gear / Guild (( Believe it or not, folks who are in 'uber' guilds are viewed as better players, when that is so often not the case ))
    2- Class
    3- Race

    So, the one poster you have here is flat out telling you that "Yes, I am trading everything else for efficiency of healing." considering the odds are equal of a well equipped player being cool and a poorly equipped player being cool, it's hard to find fault with that view. :smileysad:

    Still, I feel your pain. The thing that gets lost in the translation is that GOOD GEAR DOES NOT EQUAL GOOD PLAYER. All the Fabled gear in the universe isn't going to help a tank that can't hold aggro. All the avoidance in the world isn't going to help a tank that can't position a critter effectively.
  6. ARCHIVED-Pnaxx Guest

    Crow, if I may add something here.....A litle advise *points to chair*

    What i would reccommend you do is, find a group of players you like to group with, guild or otherwise, and let them get to know you. Once they see and experience what a great, if not a bit under equipted Tank you are, you will have no problem with that at all.

    I generally do not have the best gear either, i just upgraded recently, but my gear was green. blue and yellow and orange.....kinda like a nice big ice cream cone. But , at any rate, I have always found it rather easy to group with people, even strangers and lved very fast with this toon. 40 now

    Maybe some grouping tequninques a in order here that may help you in grouping better and spreading your fame far and wide. Here are some things that I do that really help alot.

    1. Form your own group. Couple different ways to do this...
  7. ARCHIVED-Pnaxx Guest

    Crow, if I may add something here.....A litle advise *points to chair*

    What i would reccommend you do is, find a group of players you like to group with, guild or otherwise, and let them get to know you. Once they see and experience what a great, if not a bit under equipted Tank you are, you will have no problem with that at all.

    I generally do not have the best gear either, i just upgraded recently, but my gear was green. blue and yellow and orange.....kinda like a nice big ice cream cone. But , at any rate, I have always found it rather easy to group with people, even strangers and lved very fast with this toon. 40 now

    Maybe some grouping tequninques a in order here that may help you in grouping better and spreading your fame far and wide. Here are some things that I do that really help alot.

    1. Form your own group. Couple different ways to do this...
  8. ARCHIVED-Pnaxx Guest

    Crow, if I may add something here.....A litle advise *points to chair*

    What i would reccommend you do is, find a group of players you like to group with, guild or otherwise, and let them get to know you. Once they see and experience what a great, if not a bit under equipted Tank you are, you will have no problem with that at all.

    I generally do not have the best gear either, i just upgraded recently, but my gear was green. blue and yellow and orange.....kinda like a nice big ice cream cone. But , at any rate, I have always found it rather easy to group with people, even strangers and lved very fast with this toon. 40 now

    Maybe some grouping tequninques a in order here that may help you in grouping better and spreading your fame far and wide. Here are some things that I do that really help alot.

    1. Form your own group. Couple different ways to do this...1) Go to the LFG area under community, and invite players....they almost always are up fer something. And they say yes without knowing ur stats cept ur lvl. 2) when you see healers running around, ask them to duo with ye...they often do becuase they need a tank usually. 3) Go to palces where groups are needed and hang out there....groups are always loosing players in the middle of the fun and need to fill the viod fast......there they see you hanging around with your LFG tag on and bingo, ur in a nice fun group.

    I hope some of this helps...as coming from a player whio is not wearing the best stuff, but has a great rep fer Tanking and has no prob getting groups.

    Also...one more thing......when ur tanking fer an xp group, move from one mob to the next without much rest....peeps love that and just rest every once in a whilr to power up. Be frantic in your pace and pull adds sometimes to make to it fun too. You are the group leader for the most part and just go really fast from mob to mob....dont let them all catch their breath...they will like that and it means more xp with some adrenaline pumping too.

    *bows*
    Pnaxx
  9. ARCHIVED-DaranHB Guest

    I guess the main question is how much of difference the gear is going to make, by the way gear to me includes skills food drinks and sometimes potions.

    Now if your talking about a level 35 tank in a full suit of feyiron vs a level 35 tank in a full suit of feysteel? nope, sorry I really dont care one way or the other.

    However if we're talking about a 35 tank in carbonite vs a 35 tank in feyiron.....well thats a horse of a different color.

    I don't think I've ever seen a fighter told he shouldn't tank just cause he's using common crafted armor of the correct teir, however I have seen fighters told to step back because they never upgraded any abilities past apprentice 1.

    Does player skill matter? of course! But 9 out of 10 times a player in greyed out armor doesnt have much skill either.

    So Crow, I guess the question is "what do you consider to be adequate armor?".


    as for when you say 'some people wear armor they hate just for stats' if you choose to wear feyiron cause you like it more than feysteel (god that stuffs ugly) more power to ya, that money can go to making adept 3 skills instead, however if you show up in a pick up group with a 2 handed sword and a robe cause it 'looks pretty'....sorry, I dont trust you enough to tank.

    And as for Racial differences, there really aren't any that could make/break a fighter. Racial abilites (with maybe the exception of the +5 defense one) make next to no difference, +5 stamina means nothing, 3% health pool? nada. the next time someone picks the ogre cause they are a 'better tank', hold something shiny up and while they are distracted, drooling, and staring into the shiny object smack them upside the head as hard as you can.

    Can a Darkelf berserker in common armor with apprentice 4 skills do his/her job? yes, infact from what i hear in the upcoming Combat Revamp(tm) agility will be a huge boon to a warrior, and wisdom will help them resist spells. Intelligence will likely have some use as well.


    Message Edited by DaranHB on 06-27-2005 08:25 PM
    Message Edited by DaranHB on 06-27-2005 08:34 PM
  10. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

  11. ARCHIVED-ArivenGemini Guest

    And dealing with incompentant tanks makes it no fun. :)
    Which is why I said "up to par" and "norm" and not "elite armor" and "ahead of everyone else with ebon", Daran said it best with " However if we're talking about a 35 tank in carbonite vs a 35 tank in feyiron.....well thats a horse of a different color. " I dont expect a casual pickup group to need to field the ebon armor (or feysteel or whatever for a given tier)... but I do expect the tank to have a reasonable approximation of CURRENT tier equipment. If I see a tank at 31+ with AQ armor on, I am going to have to question his commitment to tanking and have to question if he has bothered to upgrade his taunts or knows how to play the class in the role of MT... again, as I have said before, if you dont know anything about the person you have to judge him based on what you can see.. and equipment is a good indicator in my book until I get to know his skills and style.
    Why do you assume that I mean ebon? I am talking about general groups and average equipment for a level. If someone steps up to the plate to tank, he needs current tier gear.. not previous tier gear. I have seen people at 35 with AQ gear that maxed out 7 levels prior... that is irresponsible of them to do so and will get ME moving in a different direction fast... You don't need to be elite to get a normal job done, but you should be up to date with the norm... It seems to me that you have a ulterior motive here attempting to paint me into the camp of "must have ebon to tank" and that is far from the truth, so please quit attempting to use me to further your agenda...
    But if someone cannot keep up to date on equipment I doubt they are up to date on anything else... which is my whole point here... try to focus.
    As for not having money, trust me I know exactly the situation.. I run with minimal cash reserves because I try to keep my equipment white or better, my class specific spells/abilities up to date and my food/drink going... I have several alts to pay for so it costs a lot.. but.. as I mentioned before... if I fall behind the curve on my armor with one of my tanks, and I have too much blue armor or any green or grey I will NOT tank.. it isn't fair to my group..
    And this comment changes my point how? If I have blue, green and/or grey armor I am making my entire group work harder than they should, and risking party wipe... even in a hunting group... for someone who claims to be poor you seem awfully cavalier about paying for repair costs..
  12. ARCHIVED-RafaelSmith Guest

    Well my 2cp...

    Yes gear is important but lets face it in EQ2 gear means very little. Its all about the buffs, spells, combat arts, etc.

    I know as a Guardian if I had the best of the best in gear yet still had App1s of all my taunts, buffs, etc I would pretty much suck at holding aggro and being a tank. Ide have impressive HP and AC but those wont do the healer or mage getting smacked on any good.

    BUT As long as Ive kept my gear decent for my level/tier, concentrated on upgrading all the combat arts I could, learned how and when to use them....people notice and want me back as their tank.

    To the OP My suggestion would be next time your in a situation where you feel your group wrongly passed you up for being MT...perhaps chat/tell with whomever they picked to MT. If he/she is in agreement with you then you both decide you shall MT.. If some silly caster/priest disagrees then /disband and go find another group. When ive been in situations where there is more than one choice for MT thats how ive handled it. Tanks should know best about tanking..they should decide who should do the job.
  13. ARCHIVED-ArivenGemini Guest

    QFE

    :)

    Skill is the biggest factor, the hard part is telling skill when you dont know the person..
  14. ARCHIVED-CherobylJoe Guest

    Gear is nice but if you have a raid/hard exp group tank that cant position or react quickly to threats...well its going to be a frustrtaing night. Good indication of a "good tank"; watch where they place themselves. If they consistently find spots where they are out of pats/in a good position to get agro and/or can pull while running backwards (akin to keeping the ball in front of you in baseball) well you'll see control. Control generally means more success. I imagine as the game progresses and you see more complex stratgies akin to EQ1 on raids skill will become even more important.
    The irony is that most good tanks also tend to have good gear...at least if they play fairly often.
  15. ARCHIVED-RafaelSmith Guest

    Aye.

    But in EQ2 "good gear" is so easy to get that even the worst tanks in the game will have it. Ive been in raids/groups with tanks with far far "better" gear than I that I will never group with again. The only solice that I take is that those guys thru their own actions will have very expensive mending costs =P
  16. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

  17. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

    I agree, but on my server an ebon cluster cost between 4-6 plats. I harvest to try to find some ebon and kill named, so far I found one. :smileyhappy: So not bad. But I don't have 50 plat in bank to buy all ebon I need and ruby for rings and etc and etc... But it doesn't mean I am not a good tank because I don't have the plat.
  18. ARCHIVED-Sabin the Great Guest

    I will say that having the best gear does not always mean being the being the best player, but you have to expect that, as posted above, gear between two unknown tanks will likely be the deciding factor in who you choose. However, I don't really feel that this is specific to just tanks. Lets say I'm choosing a warlock. If one dude is wearing greened out gear and another is in great gear my instinct will be to grab the one with good gear. More than anything games like this will come down to that type of comparison. My advice to you would be find a good guild. Guilds generally find a way to help the good players get better. And in the mean time, when you're not tanking, you should do everything you can to be the best non-tank you can.
  19. ARCHIVED-Darkdog Guest

    I disagree, and honestly at this stage of the game I think converting an ebon to armor right now would be a waste. Currently on my server an ebon cluster runs for 2-4 pp. In a few months there will be an expansion that is coming out and the armor and gear available in it will be far better than any ebon gear currently and there are other alternatives to fulginate on the market right now. Look at the gear coming out of return from Nek and stuff dropping from raid mobs. If you look at most of the elite guilds right now none of their MT are in ebon, they are in their shiny whites (Fabled). So I would sell the ebon and save the money for more important things like combat art upgrades and jewelry. I got my set of gear for under 1 plat and everything is better than fulginate, not as good as ebon, but no one seems to notice when I am tanking. The bigger problem we have is the brained washed guild masters that will not even give a zerker an oppertunity to tank x3 and lower raid mobs.
  20. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

    Well thats my gear for now. I will have an ebon breastplate soon because I won an ebon, but my others part of armor are silvered vanguard of everling (something like that) so not bad at all. It's orange and I am level 50.

    But what upset me is, in group, they inspect the fighters and choose the one with the best numbers. NO others factors is considered. It's a social matter, more than a game matter.

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