Tanks being judged only for their gear

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-cr0wangel, Jun 27, 2005.

  1. ARCHIVED-Darkdog Guest

    Its always that way. Put two guys side by side both looking the same and a girl will pick the one wearing Ralph Lauren over the K-Mart polo any day.
  2. ARCHIVED-Padien Guest

    I guess I'll try to be simple in telling you what everyone else has tried to tell you.
    When you are in a pickup group, no one knows anyone. They do not know what spells you have adepts in or not. They do not know if you have skill playing your charactor or not. All they have to compare you against the other tanks in the group is your gear and level.
    Because of this, they are going to choose the best tank with the knowledge they have availible.
    This does not mean you are a bad tank. It does not mean they think you are a bad tank. It means that with the knowledge availible, you are not the best tank.
    As someone who rarely had the best equipment for most my zerkers leveling, I found forming myown groups worked out best. After you group with enough people, and you proove to be a good tank, you might find yourself in the same position I did; with several people begging you to join their group everytime you logged in. The reason they would want me as their tank is because after they grouped with me, they now have more knowledge about my ability to tank.
    If you don't like another tank being chosen over you, then just form yourown groups. All will work itself out. You might find even after you have been the tank of a group, people still don't think you are very good. Let's face it, 90% of the tanks, if not more, are not very good or down right suck, and while you might think you are great, you might not be.
    Message Edited by Padien on 06-29-2005 01:32 PM
  3. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

    Message Edited by cr0wangel on 06-30-2005 02:49 AM
  4. ARCHIVED-Ruse Guest

    Unless they know that one person is an awesome tank, and the other is a lousy one, they are going to pick the one that's statiscially better. More Mit, HP, and avoidance. It's been said before, but that's just the way it is. I'm surprised this thread is still going.

    Now, if you have grouped with both tanks before, and you know one is better than the other... Unless there is a big differance, it would be stupid to not pick the one that can keep hate. But, in a pickup group, more often than not, the one in better gear will be the more experianced player, have higher quality skills, and all around, be the better tank. If you are a Berserker though, that shouldn't be a problem. switch to DPS mode, and prove he can't hold aggro... Or, pick up his slack.
  5. ARCHIVED-Padien Guest

    This definately would make me think a bit.

    If they know you both and they choose to have the other guy tank due to gear, perhaps you aren't as good as you think you are in other catagories. Perhaps you are average, most people are after all, that's what average is.

    We all like to think we are great. We choose our play style because it's comfortable to us, but that doesn't mean it's comfortable to everyone else, or stands out as great to others.

    There are plenty of people out there that prefer to have a lower level and or lesser equipped tank to tank when they know the person with lesser qualifications is very good at doing their job anyways.
  6. ARCHIVED-Padien Guest

    And one more thought.
    On raids, on particularly challenging fights, sometimes it's best to just have the person with the best gear and HP to tank that one fight. The person with the skills and all can still plan the battle, dictate what to do, but sometimes the gear and HP can make a difference in special fights and you can talk them through the skill part. (i.e. raids)
  7. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

    Wow. Good team work to get the aggro off the MT.... that's not a solution.
  8. ARCHIVED-DwarvesRUs Guest

    I am not yet a zerker with my new toon that's gonna go zerk, but I can still comment a touch on this, I think.
    1) It's not always the gear, it's also the class. My mystic doesn't get picked up for a group much, in spite of having a complete set of pristine player-made, tier-appropriate gear. I also have upgraded every single last one of my skills to at least App4, if not Ad1. And I do well enough as a healer that I actually have been thanked more than once for doing so well at the end of pick-up groups. But all people see is "Mystic" and think "They're the gimped ones." In spite of the good gear that they can see on inspect.
    My monk is in largely the same situation, though his gear is only "regular" player-made instead of pristine. I have no problem being the offtank and peeling mobs off casters if the MT loses aggro. In fact, I kinda like that role. But it's still plenty annoying to be the only fighter in a group and have the templar say "Well, I guess I'll be the tank, then." Of course, the times that has happened, I just pulled and kept aggro and they all realized pretty quick that I could tank just fine, even as a "dps class." :smileymad:
    Same for my 33rd level SK. All of my spells/ca's are Adept 1, with the very occasional App4. All my armor is at least feyiron, with an imbued feysteel breastplate, legendary sword, and fabled shield. I solo heroic groups of 3 that are 2 levels higher than me. But everyone says "SK -- can't tank." At least, until after the 1st pull. . . . .assuming I can get into a group in the 1st place.
    2) Sometimes a piece of equipment is let go gray on purpose. My 28th level warlock is wearing a robe that was green to her when she got it at 23 and has been gray since 24. Why? It has a +10 Int on it. I'm in process of getting a robe with better stats for "everything else" and "only" a +8 INT pretty quick here so I won't be taking a real hit on Int, but until then, this robe is functional, and the +10 int at her level is worth the lower mitigation. Since I *did* buy the pristine player made robe for Tier 3 and equipped it and watched my power go down and my mitigation only increased by 0.3% -- let's just say I'll keep my gray robe until I find one that is completely superior. Plus it's a relatively rare robe so it is a pretty unique look too. In spite of that -- I have spent over 1.5 platinum on my spell upgrades and have several adept 3's, and have to be careful not to overnuke and get aggro from chain-taunting tanks that are 6 levels higher than I am. Every group I've been in so far has had someone say "I have GOT to get me a warlock!!! That is some amazing dps!" But if they examine me -- they see a gray robe. Even though everything *else* is upgraded. . . . .that still usually is a "turn off" for them.

    Anyway... .that's my vent on the topic. And in reply to the last post -- yes, I really hate it when I actually am MT and the 2nd fighter in the group starts tossing taunts.
  9. ARCHIVED-ERROR Guest

    Crow...

    I don't know how anyone can make this any more clear to you.

    Here's an example:
    • A group forms up.. 2 Tanks, 1 healer, 3 DPS.
    • No one knows one another.
    • Tank A is decked out in mint gear with sick stats, making his MaxHP / Avoid better
    • Tank B is wearing gear with less stats, so he's going to take more damage and mobs will land hits on him more frequently.
    • Both Tank A and Tank B think that they are the best man (or woman) for the job.

    Rather then sitting around for 2 hours, arguing about who has better tactics/skills... Guess what! The healer and DPS are going to pick the tank that is better outfitted. It's the ONLY logical salution. It's only rational to pick the tank that has the most patental to do the best job.

    Also, you said that the game is all about fun right? But who's fun are you talking about? Being grouped with two tanks who are constantly fighting about who is better isn't much fun for everyone else in the party.

    As for your friends wanting someone else to tank in your place... Like somebody said already, maybe you aren't the best tank for the job after all. It happens. Not everyone can be the best (obviously) and you're going to have to deal with that.

    PS: Before you pick apart my post and quote line by line, out of context ( seems you like doing that ), save it. It's all the same point.
  10. ARCHIVED-Ambergris Guest

    Gear is something that makes a huge deal of difference - though in many cases it is the invisible gear that makes the most difference - by which I'm talking CAs.

    Given easy mobs the armour gear of two tanks may be irrelevent - since aggro and maximising DPS is far more likely to be an issue than survival. A poorly armoured berserker with master in Bully and Anarchy is in this case probably better than his more fabled armoured compatriot who has slacked in spells.

    If I were chosing just by appearances however, I'd chose the one with the better visible gear. Is it fair, perhaps not, but it is most certainly logical. Given intangible differences which are not instantly testable or visible differences it is always the latter which will be used.

    The answer is, of course, to have decent gear and play well :)
  11. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

  12. ARCHIVED-Styker Guest

    Plain and simple, if you dont know the group you just joined and they have a tank in group already with better gear and stats then you , why should you expect to tank? See first how effective the tank is and IF you run into major problems with agro,pulls etc then take it from him and show that your better... If he does a good job then pull our your 2H and wack away ..... xp is xp and or quests are quests, if you really want to tank and group thinks otherwise then find a new group :) Simple as that
  13. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

    What you are saying is good, except I am level 50 already, I don't need xp anymore. When I group with people is for fun or to help. However, I do not like following, assisting and making damage. Berserker do nice damage, but it bore me quickly to assist. :smileysad: Sometimes I do it of course, to help or when I need the quest. But I prefer much more to be the MT, pull the mob, manage the aggro, etc.
    When there is already a MT in the group, I respect that. I was talking about when the group is forming, and everyone have to decide who will be MT and there are multiple fighters. Too often, I have heard ''I think Bob should be MT he has more HP -sigh- or when we face a named ''I think bob should tank the named he has more HP'' It upset me because when people say that, it sounds like I suck only because of a raw number, they really think I can't tank because I have 200 HP less, so it's ridiculous. More HP help, in a raid it will be very important, but I am talking about hunting groups, I can do the job perfectly even with less HP. I know orgre, throll, barbarian are best suited to be tank but I choose dark elf for a roleplay reason, I did not know that people will judge me for my numbers. Glad I am not an erudite.
    My main point was, in this game, there is a lot of ''munchkin''. There is a difference between a munchkin and a paragamer. Munchkins play to win. I play to have fun. (Don't misunderstood, winning is fun. But thats not the ONLY thing that is fun.)
    Min-max, min-maxing
    To carefully tweak a character so as to optimize the character for one thing, usually combat, often at the expense of other aspects of the character; or, to tweak a character to take advantage of quirks in the rules to do the same thing.
    Munchkin
    Attempting to "win" the game, even at the expense of the other players.
    Message Edited by cr0wangel on 07-06-2005 11:41 AM
  14. ARCHIVED-ArivenGemini Guest

    What it really comes down to is this selections of options:

    1) Live with it
    2) Start your own groups, you get to make the rules.
    3) try to overcome it with even better gear
    4) Reroll to a "better" race

    You are not going to change human nature here Crow... all other things being equal, if one stat is better then thats who is going to win... I, nor are most of us, am not going to administer a long psych profile, in game quiz and ask for resumes when selecting a tank... we are all going to have our preconceived notions... and if being passed over because you are not perfect to some stranger when you admittedly have less in some area really bothers you, I urge you to take option 4... you will be happier in the long run...

    Your best bet in the short run is to just take option 2... and dont invite other tanks... you win by default...but no matter what option you want.. there is no option to change other peoples notions.... you can merely play your best and hope they choose to change them on their own.. coming here and complaining because you chose role play over min/max and are having problems grouping with people who want the best for their groups isn't going to change a single souls opinions...

    Make your choice and live with it...
  15. ARCHIVED-einar438 Guest

    Generally if a group is so an_l that gear is going to be used as the criteria for selecting a group member, then that group is probably pretty clueless with regards to tactics and other subtleties. So in the end you are probably better off being passed over by that party. I tend to develop a reputation so that people know me as a MT for clarity of communication, precision, situational awareness, and an quickness of understanding of the roles and abilities of the other members of the party, not only for their archetypes, but picking up on their playstyles.

    If someone doesn't want me in their group because the gauntlets I'm wearing aren't l33t enough, oh well, what the h_ll.
  16. ARCHIVED-DUNN Guest

    Yikes i would have never MT with that mentality. I always kept up to gear as a SOE red headed step tank i got beat like no other with the best gear. I guess that is why you have knights at the bottom of your list as tanks hehe. By the way i was MT for 50 lvl's even with 2 warlocks and 2 wizzies in my group :p

    In reality tanking is never about the gear, but rather how well you can keep that aggro on you. Spells are your freind an knowing how to use them in the right way makes you a good tank. Any good healer can keep a tank up no matter what gear he is wearing in a group.

    I have seen some crappy tanks with the best gear and all spells upgraded and some aawsome tanks with the bear minimum gear. So can i just say BS on the whole gear makes a good tank thing.

    Knowing how to use your skills makes one a good tank.

    Raids however are a whole different thing.
  17. ARCHIVED-cr0wangel Guest

    Why it won't change people opinion? Forum are here to express yourselves. I noticed that the min/maxing is worst in everquest than in others games I played before and that's why I made this post. Everquest seem to be about items and numbers, more than characters. I thought it was a RPG, for roleplaying game, not an ''item wearing game''.
    Message Edited by cr0wangel on 07-06-2005 02:45 PM
  18. ARCHIVED-Padien Guest

    Look, everyone here has been pretty nice and danced around the reality here.
    Truth is, good tanks, or at least exceptional tanks are picked as the MT regardless of equipment and HP. The reason the people you know aren't wanting you to tank is you are at best, average.
    Average is what most people are, so it really isn't like you are a moron (although you could suck at tanking).
    As an example of people who do choose skill over gear, race and HP. I have always been asked to MT and I play a gnome zerker. I get chosen to tank over guardians in full ebon all the time, regardless of level. Heck, I was even asked to stay MT when playing my gnome Dirge in Runnyeye before when a guardian joined. I know I'm a good tank and people let me know. People don't care what your stats are if you show yourself to clearly be a better tank.
    Now, one note. I have asked other tanks to MT on a particularly tough mob that I didn't feel I'd be able to manage (gnome, low HP and I don't have the +5 defensive trait due to race), but even on those fights, my group wanted me to tank until I convinced them otherwise.
  19. ARCHIVED-ArivenGemini Guest

    Why? because you cannot force a change to everyone just to meet your whims... and it is foolish to think so... sure you can lay out arguments, like us trying to tell you some matter of fact stuff... but in the end the ONLY way someone is going to change how they do things is if they decide to change themselves..

    Again, since I still like beating against stone walls that wont change.. if as stipulated you know nothing at all about the tank, and can only judge by apparant differences in gear.. that is the method most are going to use.. you are going to have to get used to either disappointment or that fact...

    Showing youself a better tank, starting your own group, etc.. all means to circumvent this.. but if you ONLY HAVE gear to go by, thats what is going to be used... your role play argument is all well and good.. but it is meaningless here.. not relevant nor important..

    If you want a ROLE PLAY group, start one.. role play your heart out... I do when I am in a RP mood... but down to brass tacks.. you postulate a situation that happens a lot... random players getting together with no knowledge of the tanks.. then yes.. gear is it.. once they know your tanking style the entire equation changes..

    I have had guardians 4+ levels higher than me opt out of tanking in favor of me, even using my monk because they know I can do the job that we were there for.. obviously my "gear" isn't up to their level... but they and the group knew I was up to the job and able to traverse the gap due to skill alone... heck when playing my berserker I am the main tank or not in the group... not due to some egotistical problems or RP issues.. I am mt because I cannot do the job of DPS as effectively as I could playing my swashbuckler... especially haveing to tone down attacks so much to not gain agro off the MT..I am wasting everyones time if I try that so I either MT, leave group or load a DPSer..

    But, fact of the matter is.. regardless of your agenda to change us all into mindless followers of "I am a role player so I can still be exactly as good as that professional tanker" your preferances are not gonna make people change..

    DEMONSTRATE you can do the job, and people will change themselves... you complaining about how you chose your race for RP and it isn't fair that someone who is better equiped and has higher HP is picked in a grind group isn't going to make your grind group change their mind... so find a RP group, start your own group and show people how good you are...
  20. ARCHIVED-ArivenGemini Guest

    Exactly.. I have no qualms about stepping aside for a better tank.. or a tank who is as good as me but who has higher mit/avoid/etc.. heck sometimes I dont even want the hassle which is why I have different alts.. emotions and RP aside, when grinding out xp, it helps to be efficient and to work as a team not to demand you are MT just because you want to be... show people... demonstrate.. make them WANT you..

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