Tanking Zerkers + AA line opinions !!

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-katshimoto, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-katshimoto Guest

    Hi guys, how are we all doing... :smileyhappy:

    I've been tanking all my zerker's life and been doing fine. But i have a lil concern about our tanking ability in KoS with the AA system since the dps classes are beefed up hardcore with their AA's.
    Have anyone having problem holding agro if you are not going for STR line in AA table? I mean later on when dps ppl get more AA points, their dps will keep increasing, and if we "tanking zerkers" are not going for STR line to increase our hate, will we have to face the agro holding ability here? Any suggestion on AA line rather than STR line or gro holding tip in KoS?

    I'm currently going WIS line myself though haven't reached the last ability on this line. Have anyone tried out the last ability on this line yet? I wonder if it does cancel the penalties on Juggernaut, Suppressed Rage or Wall of Rage... Im not very clear about this ability.

    Thanks and hope ya'll enjoy our zerkers cuz they ROX !!!! :smileywink:
  2. ARCHIVED-TheBohbo Guest

    I am working on that too, its called Demolish, but the way i understand it, it only works on Courageous Will and Unrestrained Fury line stances. Juggernaut, Supp Raged, and Wall are buffs not really stances.
  3. ARCHIVED-FightGame Guest

    The last in the wisdom line is not called demolish.....is it? I thought it was champion or something.

    If you want to be a better tank, then the last in the Wisdom line really isn't for you. It will only give you a little more DPS when in the defensive stance (which is where you wanna be if you are tanking, for the added mitigation).
    As long as you keep your group taunt, single taunt, rescue, and insolent gibe at adept 3 or better, aggro control shouldn't be much of a problem....kinda assuming you're with a group of people that also know how to control their aggro. I think if you have your taunts at adept 3 or better, and you loose aggro, then the little added hate in the strength line probably won't matter.
    I play the tank role, so I'm maxing out +mitigation (4th step in Wisdom) and +defense (4th step in agility). Haven't decided on the remaining 9 points...maybe also max out Belly Smash (awesome debuff / knockdown / damage) since it's a nice ability and I'll have 4 points in it already any way, and/or the first step in stamina for the extra health. I'll also already have points in DPS (3rd in wisdom line) and frontal AOE chance (3rd in agility line), so a couple extra here and there would be cool. I wish I could spend the remaining 9 points into something defensive, but there's no other options.
    All my opinion of course.
    Message Edited by FightGame on 03-21-200601:17 PM
  4. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "If you want to be a better tank, then the last in the Wisdom line really isn't for you. It will only give you a little more DPS when in the defensive stance (which is where you wanna be if you are tanking, for the added mitigation)."

    I disagree. As a tanking Zerker I for one am greatly looking forward to not having my offensive melee skills nerfed into the red while in my defensive stance so it will be a lot easier for me to hit yellow and orange con mobs, which is very important for keeping aggro from same-level DPS classes that don't have any of their offensive skills nerfed and in the case of scouts and other fighters that I am tanking for, will have them increased well beyond their max by their offensive stances. And you also have to consider the fact that you will no longer have the defensive penalty on your offensive stance either, making it a much more viable option to use while tanking.

    "As long as you keep your group taunt, single taunt, rescue, and insolent gibe at adept 3 or better, aggro control shouldn't be much of a problem..."

    That may be true when you are higher level than the DPS classes in your group and/or are tanking green or blue con mobs but when you are tanking yellow and orange con mobs for same-level or higher DPS classes it can become quite a challenge, especially with your defensive stance on, believe me. Having the offensive penalties removed from your defensive stance is IMO a very powerful thing. It will also help a great deal while soloing and dueling with either stance on. Well worth the 8 points if you ask me.

    "kinda assuming you're with a group of people that also know how to control their aggro."

    That's another thing, you can't always count on the abilities of the DPS people you group with to be able to control their aggro properly, at least not in random pickup groups. If you're in a large guild with a lot of people who know you very well you may not have to worry about that problem as much as I do, but being in a small guild with only a few high levels that aren't always online at the same time I am I find myself going LFG a lot to get in groups for instances and things. So I see that having a little extra ability to keep aggro regardless of what the other people in my group are doing will be a great benefit to me. And once I get this ability I'm sure that I will find myself using my offensive stance a lot more than I do now to do even more damage while I am tanking.

    "I think if you have your taunts at adept 3 or better, and you loose aggro, then the little added hate in the strength line probably won't matter."

    I think if you maxed out that ability with all 8 points it would make a huge difference in most situations. It's unfortunate though you have to go with the STR line that literally has no defensive options in it to get that extra hate bonus. At least I will be getting a considerable bonus to my DPS from the WIS line as well as the extra mitigation and a couple of nice AOE abilities from the AGI line as well as the extra avoidance from it. I prefer to have a good balance of defensive and offensive traits rather than going all out one way or the other.
  5. ARCHIVED-FightGame Guest

    Pretty much why I said it was all my opinion. Didn't want to come off like it was all fact and the same for everyone, otherwise someone would come and pick my post apart and tell me why each thing I said is wrong....wait that happened any way.
    I'm level 70 now, and planned my points around knowing that I will be. Therefore, as far as not being able to hit the mobs as well, to hold aggro....well if we are fighting a high enough level mob that I won't be able to hit it as well, then everyoone in the group/raid will have the same problem, or worse, because they may be lower than level 70. Personally, I don't have a problem holding aggro. I typically group with guildies, that know how to play their toon and know when they should be trying things, and when they shouldn't, to avoid pulling aggro. Sometimes I'm in pick up groups, and it's usually still not a problem for me, but occasionally someone will get one shotted, and as far as I'm concerned, as long as it's not a healer, so the group don't wipe...then oh well...it's just a death for them...maybe they'll learn something from it...maybe they should give me 2 seconds to taunt and get some aggro before the try to ice comet. I have all but newest taunt at adept3 or master, and for the occasion I loose aggro and a regular taunt don't get it back, that's what rescue is for. That's what insolent gibe is for...especially on the multi-mob encounters.
    All I'm saying, as far as aggro is concerned, is that if you know how to play your character, you have upgraded your taunts, and you play with others that know their character (I think this will include the majority of us), the extra hate in strength line is NOT needed. Neither will the little more DPS you'll get with finishing the wisdom line.
    Dude why don't you just give your opinions, and describe your experiences on stuff, WITHOUT quoting others, and trying to make it like these other people don't know anything. This is the reason all these threads get going back and forth on a bunch of worthless crap for everyone coming here for some real info. You make it personal. I've read some of your posts, and most of the time, it seems you really know what you're talking about. You seem pretty knowledgeable about the game, and people may respect that, and come to you for advice. But, nobody wants to come here and see your posts, and how you tear apart people opinions. You shouldn't argue with someone's opinion. If someone came here and was claiming something as a fact, and you know it isn't, then by all means, set them straight. Just makes you look like an instigator, and a know it all - when really you are not.

    These are MY OPINIONS and I encourage everyone to pick the points and play the game they want to. If you've read my posts, and you know how I play, and your play style is similar to mine, then maybe listening to me will help you. If you do happen to have a problem holding aggro, then get more hate, however you can. Do whatever you have to do, to better YOUR character, and YOUR game, whatever that game may be. For example, if you feel you need another ability when you have your spear equipped, I highly suggest putting 8 points in the second step of agility. lol
    Message Edited by FightGame on 03-21-200603:51 PM
  6. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    Wow dude you need to relax, I was just offering my options on some of the comments you made. You are taking things way out of context. I don't need people telling me how to make my posts. If you don't like them then don't read them. It's really that simple. I am really not sure why you are so getting so offended either, I did not say one bad thing about you or any your opinions. If I did not include the quotes that prompted my responses then my posts would not make any sense at all. I quoted some of your sentences because I had specific comments to make about the issues they touched on. And there is no need to get upset just because someone disagrees with some of your opinions. You know that crap is getting really old around here and IMO people need to stop being such babies and grow up and quit throwing tantrums just becuase someone disagrees with them about something.

    "All I'm saying, as far as aggro is concerned, is that if you know how to play your character, you have upgraded your taunts, and you play with others that know their character (I think this will include the majority of us), the extra hate in strength line is NOT needed."

    It may not actually be needed for you to do your job but that is not the point. The point is that it would make your job easier. Keep in mind that none of these AA's are supposed to be requirements in order to be able to perform your basic fuction in a group to a satisfactory level. They are just meant to give you an extra edge in certain areas.

    "trying to make it like these other people don't know anything"


    You are making fasle assumptions about me and my intentions here. I did not say or imply in any way that you did not know anything. Just because someone quotes you and makes a reply that you don't happen to agree with does not mean they are attacking you. So now you are attacking me over nothing. Then you wonder why huge arguements get started.

    "You make it personal."

    No, sir, YOU are the one making it personal here. I did not make one personal comment to you whatsoever in any of my previous posts. You are percieving personal attacks where they do not exist and then proceeding to make personal attacks against me for no reason.

    "Nobody wants to come here and see your posts, and how you tear apart people comments, suggestions, opinions, whatever."

    Well maybe no one wants to come here and see any of your posts either. What makes yours so much more special than mine anyway? I really have no freaking idea wth you are going on about. This is how I make my posts. I read other peoples comments and then I will quote them if I want to make a reply to a specific thing they said. Oftentimes I will quote people when I am in total agreeance with them. Does that bother you as well? But of course I guess you never bothered to notice that, you only get mad when I disagree with someone. That makes no sense at all. You really are getting all mad over nothing.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-21-200606:51 PM
  7. ARCHIVED-Epyx Guest

    I thought long and hard, and posted my comments on the last line of Wis(5th rank) and for a tanking MT raid zerker it's a waste. really at master1 def stance it does neg 17 to crush/s/p. It's not a detriment, if your lvl 70 you'll just taunt. Also if your raiding, and your MT, unless you have serious recruitment issues you'll have at least a dirge or a coercer in your MT group, and if your desperate a swash. So imo wasting 8aa's that could otherwise beef up other lines, isn't the way i would want to go.
    I had originally thought i'd use the last rank in wis(5th rank) during my exp groups really, In exp groups i main 2hand offensive tank, if it mobs are too high then i switich to def stance, but i choose to be in off stance most my time. However being that with normal T7 KOS drops i'm getting like 20 +def without even trying, i figure thats about a good indication as any to just forgo 5th rank WIS.

    my tanking aa's atm are going to be
    wis 4/4/8/8
    sta 4/4/8/8 i'm interested in all these buckler sta posts, and i want to see for myself, if it's a big load of fooey, then instead of sta i'll just go agi 4/4/8/8
  8. ARCHIVED-atjtennis Guest

    atm I"m 4/4/4/4 in the agi line with 5 points in the firt stamina box....doing that until I get th 8 points I need for the last box of the agi line then respecing and getting it then Ithink I'm going to go down the line wisom line and do either 4/4/4/8/0 and 5 points in the first stamina line or 4/4/4/5 and 8 points in the first stamina line.

    The last ability in the wisdom line is nice it nor any of the other lines besdies agility really screams to me as something that 1 MUST have
    Message Edited by atjtennis on 03-21-200611:22 PM
  9. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    If i was building my Zerker around nothing but tanking 100%, id go the WIS line to Unshakeable and put 8 points in that, then move over to the INT line and go for Parry 8 points and the final ability which increases cast times by 6% and decreases reuse times by 30%.
    So look at it like this:
    • 312 Mitigation
    • 16.8 Parry
    • 6% faster casting timers and 30% faster reuse timers
    The benefit you get out of the faster reuse timers far outweighs the minor improvement i doubt you will even notice from the final ability in WIS line.
    Me myself is going this path:
    • 8 ranks in Weapon Expertise for 22% chance to crit
    • 8 ranks in Executioner's Anger for 10% more hate gain
    • Final Ability in INT line which is Relentless Assault.
    Why the Weapon Expertise? Because i get 10% more hate gain and with a high dmg rating weapon and my chance to crit being somewhat rather high i increase my ability to control agro, not to mention when im not tanking i can do some nice DPS.
    Why the Executioner's Anger? If you havent noticed it by now, we cant hold agro as good as a Paladin or a Guardian, especially if the Guardian knows his class well, so in doing so im increasing the amount of agro control i can do and there fore letting my group that much more balls to the wall when it comes to DPS.
    Why the Relentless Assault? Because it fits in well with our Berserker class, faster reuse timers on my Tank abilitys makes me tank better, faster reuse timers on my taunts makes me hold agro better and faster reuse timers on my DPS abilotys makes me do more damage, so its a win / win situation. Tie this into the fact that i got a 22% chance to crit plus 10% more hate gain, its a perfect set up for versatility, the rest comes down to your healers letting you stay alive.

    Message Edited by -Aonein- on 03-22-200609:46 PM
  10. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    Well you guys can think what you want but personally I have always felt at least somewhat hindered by the penalties on my stances and I can't wait to get rid of them once and for all. I agree the last abillity in the INT line is very nice but I am not willing to waste 4 of my points to get the initial 16 points of INT or whatever that I would have to get in order to reach that ability. I am going with WIS and AGI so that none of my points will be wasted on anything that doesn't help me at all.
  11. ARCHIVED-KhayosAD Guest

    I was looking at the top WIS item too but then I thought "When am I going to be in a situation where the penalties really hurt me?"
    I don't really solo, therefore I'm either a group/raid tank or a group/raid DPS
    When I'm tanking, I don't need to hit (as much)
    When I'm DPSing, I don't care about getting hit
    For me, I didn't see the benefit. I'm going all the way in the INT line for the timer reducer.
  12. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    Well I look at it this way, the way I am going I will get more mitigation, resists, avoidance, health, and dps. To each their own :)
  13. ARCHIVED-Mjollnyr Guest

    This is where i'm really impressed with SoE.

    In almost every situation where they add tree's and 'builds' there is always one build that is the best and the vast majority go that way.

    So far, everyone has a slightly difference build. Hats off!


    Personally:

    I'm either going:

    • Build#1:
      • Agi: 4/4/5/4/8
      • Sta: 4/4/8/8/0
    or
    • Build#2:
      • Agi: 4/4/8/5/8
      • Int: 4/4/4/8/0
    I am/was a mitigation hoe. Recently i've seen the advantages of having a sprinkle of avoidance. I feel we get a viable amount of mitigation from straight gear. With fully fabled gear, i think it wont be that difficult to hit the 6k mitigation cap (vs lvl70s) in a reasonable group. So using my "bonus" stuff on avoidance seems a decent idea.


    Message Edited by Mjollnyr on 03-22-200601:06 PM
  14. ARCHIVED-uux Guest

    You're not alone in wanting the penalties removed from our stances. I'm going this route as well. For the most part, it's not for extra DPS when using the defensive stance. It's actually appealing to me for our stuns, knockbacks, and debuffs. These abilities assist us in taking less damage and I have found the penalties on the defensive stance to greatly reduce the chance of these abilities working reliably. I also view the lack of a penalty on the offensive stance as avoidance gained back. I do not know how that compares to the added avoidance from the AGI, STA, or INT lines offhand, but if I chose to go down those paths then it's just an even bigger bonus.

    I was interested in the INT line for a while as well. The extra haste from Acceleration Strike (think that's the name; usuable almost every fight), the passive haste, and the bonus to parry seem decent enough. It's the final ability that started to make me question it. The ability is still red to me and I don't know if what is displayed are the final numbers. If they are the final numbers, then 6% faster recast timers are almost a joke. This takes only a few seconds off the reuse of our skills on long timers, and maybe a second on the quicker ones.. Our recovery timers are already less than a second, so 30% recovery timers don't mean much of anything. I really hope that final number isn't 6%.
    Message Edited by uux on 03-23-200608:43 AM
  15. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    "For the most part, it's not for extra DPS when using the defensive stance. It's actually appealing to me for our stuns, knockbacks, and debuffs. These abilities assist us in taking less damage and I have found the penalties on the defensive stance to greatly reduce the chance of these abilities working reliably."

    That is a very good point. The extra effects on those spells do not work at all unless the DD part of it actually hits the mob first. And don't forget that the taunt on Violent Pledge works in the same manner. So IMO it is quite obvious to see how the removal of the offensive penalties from the defensive stance can help a great deal with one's tanking ability. Thanks for bringing that up.
    I can see the faster recovery timers from the final ability in the INT line being a bit useful for spells like Open Wounds, Destruction, Insolent Gibe, Vision of Madness, Unyielding Will, and Rescue and the faster casting times will help with Destruction and Bloodbath a bit. But it's not quite worth the 8 points the ability costs to get along with the other 4 points you would have to waste on the initial INT bonus.
  16. ARCHIVED-uux Guest

    I originally thought the same thing with the spells like Open Wounds, etc, that are on a 3 minute timer. 6% shaved off of 3 minutes saves you 11 seconds. You'd be able to use those abilities 11 seconds sooner than before. If 6% is the final number, then it really isn't worth it. Hopefully, it will be closer to 30%.
  17. ARCHIVED-katshimoto Guest

    Wow, how nice..... you guys giving alot of useful opinions, ty all :smileytongue:

    But don't you think the STR line is very critical for tanking zerkers? Think about Berrate, at first i used master1 and had a hard time holding agro... and so i had to try master2 from bonus line, and the master2 is only 30-35 points more than master1 but it does make a huge difference somehow. So i think the % hate bonus we gain from the STR line is alot. And seriously can you guys see the dps classes will gain more and more dps when they gain more AA? What do you think....

    However, I still trying to stick with my WiS line for now see how it goes.... I hate to lose resis from wis, as well as mitigation and the penalty removal. Worst case i'd just /respec and go STR line.

    I still haven't decided what's the next one i should go for after i finish my WiS line... cuz AA's getting tougher and tougher to get. The patch update yesterday saying that there are collection/collectable books or soemthing that help getting AA xp, wonder if anyone has tried it ?
  18. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    The decrease we take from Defense stance doesnt effect your ability to land stuns, debuffs etc, thats why they have a resistability indication in the CA information ie: 30% harder, 10% harder etc. The only thing that effects your ability to land these are the quaility of the CA.
  19. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    The 6% faster recast timer isnt what your wanting the ability for, its the 30% faster reuse timers, think about it, 30% from 3 mins is 2 mins, 30% from 1 min 30 seconds is 1 min, 30 % from 8 seconds is 5.6 seconds, now i dont know about you, but i used these times for my example for a reason :
    • Rampage 3 min reuse timer
    • Open Wounds 3 min reuse timer
    • Insolent Gibe 3 min reuse timer
    • Demolish 1 min reuse timer
    • Berate 20 second reuse timer
    • Outrage 8 second ruse timer
    • Violent Pledge 10 second ruse timer
    • Wall of Rage 1 min reuse timer
    • Suppressed Rage 30 second reuse timer
    • Mayhem 1 min 30 seconds reuse timer
    • Stunning Howl 1 min reuse timer
    I could go on but i wont, now lets add the 30% decrease in reuse timers to these :
    • Rampage 2 mins 6 seconds min reuse timer
    • Open Wounds 2mins 6 seconds min reuse timer
    • Insolent Gibe 2mins 6 seconds min reuse timer
    • Demolish 42 seconds min reuse timer
    • Berate 14 second reuse timer
    • Outrage 5.6 second ruse timer
    • Violent Pledge 7 second ruse timer
    • Wall of Rage 42 second reuse timer
    • Suppressed Rage 21 second reuse timer
    • Mayhem 1 min 3 seconds reuse timer
    • Stunning Howl 42 second reuse timer
    Now also add to this that our relic legs armor reduces Demolis yet again by another 23 seconds, bring it down to a 19 second reuse timer, now i dont know about you guys, but a 19 second reuse timer on Demolish is more then enough to make me want this ability just for that fact, not to mention it increases taunt timers, tanik abilitys timer, dps timers.
    So no, not all our major abilitys are under 1 second recovery timers, we have no abilitys that are under 1 second recovery timers, we do how ever have small abilitys that are under 1 second cast timers, but again, thats not the point of the ability, the 6% cast timer increase is just fluff ontop of the 30% faster reuse timers.
  20. ARCHIVED-uux Guest

    You are confusing recast and recovery. You're ability to reuse the combat art is the recast timer. Recovery is how long you have to wait before being able to use another combat art (as you are recovering). All of a zerker's recovery timers are less than 1 second. So a skill like Rampage with a 3 minute recast timer brings it down to 2 minutes and 49 seconds (you save 11 seconds). Your 8 second taunt should still be 8 seconds if the time is rounded up, as it doesn't even shave 0.5 of a second off of it.

    Examine Rampage or Destruction and you see the following:

    Target Self
    Casting 3.0 seconds
    Recovery 0.5 seconds
    Recast 3 minutes
    Duration 36.0 seconds

    Clearly, the recovery timer is less than 1 second (as are all of our combat arts).


    Message Edited by uux on 03-25-200610:04 PM

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