Supporting Returning Players and ideas for Refer-a-Friend?

Nocturnos@Antonia Bayle wrote:

That's why I put "freeloader" in quotation marks. As I said, I'm a Silver account myself. Whether we like it or not, a good number of people look at Bronze & Silver players as "freeloaders." It is what it is, & will likely always be that way.

As has been said many times, this F2P model is not intended to be a "play forever for free" thing -- it's intended to be a "play for free until you realize you like it, then pay the monthly subscription," or IOW an extended trial. For me, most of the race & class restrictions are not a big deal, & I don't mind paying "ala' carte" for them. I can buy packs of item, spell, & broker unlockers as I need them -- I've still got some from the last bunch I bought, last December. I'm perfectly happy with being restricted to Expert spells, too, which I don't even have to buy, merely research.
Others, of course, will see things differently, & I'm not going to argue their perception. I will, however, concede that SOE would probably do themselves a favor if they could find a way to let returning players use their gear, masters, races, & classes they had before. I think that needs to be limited somewhat, as Avirodar said earlier in the thread, or else the incentive to re-sub diminishes rapidly. I also think it would behoove SOE to offer methods of unlocking the plat cap to some extent. Another one I'd love to see is ways to unlock more personal & shared bank storage slots; being limited to only 3 of the former & 2 of the latter is definitely limiting.

kcirrot wrote:

Why do you want to change this game into another asian browser money-grab MMO? There are literally hundreds of those, go play one of them. Some of us like having a game with more complexity than 'Guess Who?'.

This has probably already been touched on, and but here's my personal experience as an attempted returning player.
Install game, log in. Oh yea, I remember these characters... Oh, I can't play most of them. Well, there is one i'd like to play, so log in! Cool, he's naked. Well, most of his gear is in his bags, so I'll just... Can't equip any of it? What the hell. Oh, well there is something I can put on... Oh, it's in a bag that I still have, but aren't allowed access to.

Uninstalled.

I would say almost all content in the game needs to be adjust prior to level 90 to be more realistic in a sense -
Most players are level 80+ regardless, if not 90. The game is completely empty before that with most content ignored.

I think removing all exp penalties for grouping is a good start, removing level range penalties for grouping and mob levels, and add randomized and or personal loot to all mobs based on the player levels in the party so that no matter who goes with you, they are progressing as well (to an extent) - so long as at least one player in the party is appropriate level for the content.
IE, allow master spells for level 92 to drop on level 30 monsters if a level 30 is in the party and getting exp for the kill and a level 92. No fabled gear and limited legendary gear not on par with the latest dungeons but maybe 1-2 tiers below. That way you're progressing while helping friends and new players progress - but you're not being allowed to skip the current expansion or generation of content.

I'd REALLY like to see a reason to go to old zones, and exp there not just run through for a quest. So perhaps itemizing old world lowbie bosses (that are still low level) with high end items and spells that cannot be obtained solo and require both a low and a high level player in the same party. Perhaps even if it forces mentoring for the kill but still reward both players.

Mentoring new players or returning often feels like a chore - it's easy to hand your friend some gil, power level them from 10 to 40 or 50, but eventually it becomes a chore for your 7th, 15th, etc friend.
The whole point with this was, if level 1 through 85 is a complete waste of time, why have it in the game? Why not just start players at level 90-92 and 200 AAs so they can group with everyone? Or once you have a level 92 you can make level 92 characters. There has to be a reason to level up otherwise the world will remain vacant, and that hurts new players who don't have someone to power level them.

I think also you may need to concider that people are going to, at best, have EQ2 as their secondary pop in game - I am currently subbed to wow (boo annual pass /sigh) and playing GW2 - the reason I could pickup GW2 is that given limited play time (twins incoming!!) I dont feel bad about shelving wow and paying 1 sub untill it expires and enjoying GW2.
Im going to play EQ2 because I started graphics mmo's with EQ1 and all my friends and I moved to EQ2 on release (see my joining date) we stuck it out for many years and we have fond memories of the place - I like to come back here and I would love to see a vibrant world I can pick up and drop down for peroids of a time.
When I do return I want the full game experience without the annoyances I posted in my previous post - You are now competing with GW2, like it or not its FTP is lightyears ahead of yours in accessability and game playability. Its also new and shiney and does a few different things like the dynamic events etc that make it feel a lot more inovative than EQ2.
EQ2 has content and rich lore to counter act the new kids on the block - but its locked behind many expansions of confusion. I think you need to start getting some loremaster quests in, story quests that bring to life some of the lore and world to get poeple hooked into the game.
If you insist on this pay/ftp model IMHO you are never going to compete and attracted new members - its time in its long history to go fully ftp - your asking people to come in and pay premium sub for a game that feels dated both in graphics and in quest style and in zone based world. If you want a stock standard fantasy mmo you go to WoW - sorry but they have the ability to inovate much quicker and better than EQ2 does - and they arent afraid to re-do the mechanics that dont work for the good of the game (agree or disagree with how that turns out MoP changes to talent trees make for a nearly new experience).
If you must have the ftp having things locked away, look very hard at what you are asking people to pay for, make sure it has a cool factor.
Look at the races you have out as ftp, they are really stock standard and boring - get some unique EQ2 races on there, add ratonga and froglock thingies, no other game as talking rats!!, im mean the first thing I did when i returned and had heaps of SC was unlock ratonga because EQ2 is about ratonga and their support races, really just go with ratonga, rest are fluff /grin

Ive just spend a chunk of my free time writing this up, second post, because despite being a ftp person I do love EQ2 and would love to see it become my 2nd option game - combine this post with my last one covers most things.
Hugs

Yeah and they should ditch the Subscription/Unlock part of the F2P and make it totally free - but replace that lost income with stuff from the store. As someone above said, add "cool" races or character design options to the store that set you apart, perhaps add Non-instanced open world housing for cash as a way to populate the world as well. (then you can show off your house !)

The game is not longer competing against Turbine but now Guild Wars 2, and they've raised the bar on what people get without a subscription. Perhaps they should add a new tier for people who have spent at least $50 on the game? (Buying 1 expansion box upgrades you that far) so that if you've paid the price of a full game you no longer have restrictions - and then cash shop the hell out of us with actual cool stuff.

I know I bought a Lifetime LOTRO membership, but I still spent a lot of money in the cash shop. Even in D&D Online I have - especially Raid Timer Unlocks, so their money was not lost.

kcirrot wrote:

1. I have no plat cap.
2. I wish it wasn't a f2p game.
3. That classes have more abilities is one of the few selling points this game has for me now. I don't want to play the boring 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3 type of MMOs that so many other games are. Is this game simple? Sure, but it's not as simple as the other crap out there.
4. If they could figure out itemization, increases would be fine. With the broken itemization, it's still screwed up even when they don't increase lvls.
5. Yawn at the play how they want to play argument yet again. If you think the game is dying now, take raiding out and make solo and small group an option for endgame gear...
6. Meh. Some is good. Some is bad. The absolutely horrible itemization plan messed with more than differential imo.

Juggercap wrote:

1) Bully for you!
2) But it is, what's your point?
3) From the rest of your post, I gather we don't really agree on what is fun.
4) No they really wouldn't. Level cap expansions invalidate content and provide a huge barrier to new players and those who haven't played for awhile.
5) If the only thing this game has going for it is gear grinds then it's already dead. That's as far from what a true fantasy RPG should be as you can be.
6) People have been whining about itemization for years in this game. Itemization is screwed up because they created a gear grind as the primary activity. The made playing at level cap the primary activity in the game. The best fix for itemization is to shift the majority of power into inherent traits of the character instead of gear.
I knew someone would be right on by to talk about ways of keeping this game in the dark ages. Well, I genuinely don't care whether they do any of what I suggest. I dropped my sub two years ago, and left completely a year later. I did love this game once, but they listened to enough folks like you who shouted on the boards and ruined this game. When the game started you could just go out and adventure in the world and have a great time and be rewarded for it. Now, it's PL through 7 years of content and then gear grind. No thanks.

kcirrot wrote:

You really think 3 button play is more fun than the current incarnation? Really?
This is a PC roleplaying game. Traditionally they have complex controls and a variety of abilities available at any given time. You might enjoy consoles more.

Well..... I just resubed after being away for a couple of years and I will tell you what brought me back.
1. New character option in the Beastlord. I resubed a week ago to play the Beastlord and I've gotten him to 40 in that time!
2. I like the easier content. I started playing EQ2 in 2005 and while I enjoyed the heroic group content, I really like what you have done with reducing the difficulty. It is fun for me to log on and make progress with my character without having to search for groups.
3. I absolutly love the Merc addition. Very cool and useful. You did a great job with their play too. The perform like a real player.
4. The Golden Path quest is useful to guide players through the leveling process. It can be quite daunting trying to figure out where to go and what to do next if you dont have experience with the game.
What I would like to see if I was thinking about returning:
The biggest thing for me is the ability to find groups for dungeons. I know this game is 8 years old and very top heavy, but it would be very compelling for me to see that EQ2 had an effective LFG tool that efficiently connected players to run the more difficult content both during the leveling process and at max level.

kcirrot wrote:

Not meaning to be snarky, but ... if you want a "true fantasy RPG" that isn't a "gear grind," pen-&-paper Dungeons & Dragons says, "HELLO!"

Otherwise, IMO, you're really not going to get a "true fantasy RPG" in a MMO -- instead, you're going to get "gear grind."
As for your point regarding the number of abilities, I guess I'm in the middle: I think there is certainly *some* consolidation that could be done, but I'm not interested in any radical reduction of skills.

*deleted*

Freejazzlive wrote:

I don't know. I think GW2 and SWTOR do RPGs much better, if in different ways. And before anyone says, "well go play them." I AM!
I came to this thread because I saw a post on Massively about it. I know I shouldn't have bothered. Everquest II is what it is. The likelihood that they will turn away from the path they've chosen is nill. I'll leave it to you all! Enjoy!

Saw this thread over on Massively and as a prior player felt a desire to come back and chime in. My suggestion doesn't really have to do with softening reentry or the new player experience. I used to love this game. EQ1 + 2 are the first MMO's I played and in 13 years of playing MMO's they are also the games I played the longest out of all I have tried in that time. However they also are the ones with the worst endgame raiding imo in the entire industry. EQ2 has far too much reliance on conditions and curing and jousting as methods to create challenge in raid encounters. As well as too many instant "fail" conditions. Sure some fights have some more to them than just that but it feels like what mechanics there are, are just a sidenote to the curing/jousting metagame and become repetitive because of that. This is the sole reason I do not play these games that hold such fond memories in my heart and never will again.

Psykotic@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Well said... I don't play EQ2 anymore, there are many new MMO's out there who realize that combat systems and fighting has to evolve, or maybe we should all be playing text based MUDs. The whole curing issue really is a very good illustration of lazily crafted encounters, even worse are the incurable detriments and things where you literally just sit there for several seconds and start at the screen doing nothing. They are fight sinks (yes I'll coin that term), things to occupy you during a fight which are easy to implement versus creatively occupying you.

The other thing wrong with the game, besides the mediocre, outdated, lazily developed combat is the mediocre, outdated, lazily developed gear. We took a huge wrong turn a couple of xpacs ago when SOE decided to automate gear creation and came out with this +.02 stat junk, add to that the wrong turn of putting the absolute best looking gear on the marketplace and not accessible thru in game means such as..gasp...killing a mob or questing. So now you have a very large part of why raiders raid completely toppled out from underneath them. All that time spent preparing, beating your head against a mob, finally beating it for +.02 stats to my dull brown jerkin?
I know, I know there is plenty of money in appealing to the marketplace, that is part of the betrayal. With the "free to trial" in place it just feels nasty knowing SOE is double dipping, both on the marketplace and on forcing us to eventually sub.
Last, we have this huge rift that has grown between casual and hardcore players. Both very subjective terms with a ton of grey area in between, but the amount of time and effort to enter the game as a new player and get to the area where most players are at is ludicrous, I don't see how it will ever become a mainstream activity for the general public. I've harped on this growing rift for years, the ACT enabled, inspect your equipment, be l33t for my speed 10 second dungeon run group versus the login when baby falls asleep to have fun and run some dungeons and look good in my marketplace gear group. I've personally fallen into both groups at some time or other in my life and there is very little consolidation between the 2. It also creates a LOT of empty content, EQ2 being known as king of content is quite a misnomer as most of that content is happily empty and devoid of life.
Well I'll get off my soapbox, I have very little desire to ever again return to EQ2, the incredible game and devs that it was and used to have are well gone and it's now a haven for beancounters, accountants and lawyers and it quite shows.

You know a lot of the "suggestions" on this thread speak of dumbing the game down or making it "faster."
People who say that about a game that is already pretty easy and pretty darn fast aren't my idea of true MMO gamers lol. I've recently experienced the leveling pace of 90-91. That pace should be how the entire leveling scale is. I have been questing for about 6-8 hours and have gotten about half a level. In a lot of my other posts I question where the "ride" in an MMO has gone and when did it become purely about endgame. After reading the posts in this thread I clearly see a lot of it falls on the shoulders of the player.
Guys really need to quit with this rush, fast, hurry motto. MMOs aren't meant to really end unless you put massive amounts of time into them. Most of us are paying a monthly subscription for constant things to do otherwise we'd buy/play console games. EQ2 does the best job with attempting to constantly have things to do but still could use a bit of longevity especially in terms of leveling pace and then I come on here and see how we should have LESS abilities and how to reach cap would take TOO long? Lol. You are not MMO gamers...you are console gamers.

salty21db wrote:

I couldn't disagree with you more.
MMO's are about doing cooperative content with a large community of players. In EQ2, that only exists at level 92. Everything before level 92 is the 'crap I gotta do before I can start playing the game I want to play'.

The only thing that slows returning players up is NO gear and exp. Just borrow the ideas from Vanguard.

1. You keep the gear your wearing when you come back. Any new gear must be bought to wear (gold subscription). At least you don't log in naked.
2. Bring in Vanguards brotherhood idea. Most people leave the game due to life. At least this allows current players to help their friends come back exp wise without dumbing down the game even more.
3. Most probably wouldn't need it but perhaps a veteran pack upon renewing a subscription. EXP potions, Decent mount and a pack.

That is more then enough to come back to the game. Now hook up with your friends and go earn the other stuff with your friends.

Nidy

kcirrot wrote:

They certainly haven't listened to 'folks' like me. I agree the game is ruined now...but it's not because of anything I ever asked for.
The dumbing down of everything, like you seem to say you enjoy, is what I think ruined it mostly.

Ulrichvon wrote:

You know why it only exists at level 92? Because the entire game up until level 92 has been gutted by SOE due to the misguided notion that only the "end game" matters.
As much as I dislike WoW, I have to admit that Blizzard has not destroyed its lower level game the way SOE has, which is partially why WoW still has so much larger of a player base.
As I level up my 41 Warlock, or my 66 Swashy, it would be really nice to actually have a group of human players to explore & clear dungeons with, but why bother? Mercenaries R Us, baby -- other players not wanted!
Piffle. If SOE hadn't so thoroughly wrecked its game in response to the end-game hounds, we might not be having this discussion at all.