Stamina Achievement line is better than people think...

I have seen an increasing number of posts about how the stamina achievement line requires a buckler and is therefore crappy in comparison to the other trees. I was looking at it earlier tonight and thinking about how viable it would be for tanking and did a few quick calculations. The main argument against the line itself is that by using a buckler rather than a kite shield (because a buckler is required for the tree) we will **** our mitigation. That is true if you dont have the line that increases your block percentage.
The major difference between a kite shield and a buckler is that a kite shield has a higher protection value. Correct me if I'm wrong, but protection adds to your block percentage. From my quick tests earlier I determined that the value scales for about 100 protection per 5% block at lvl 25 (it may be different at different levels). I also looked at bucklers and kite shields of similar levels and they had about a 200 difference in protection values. Now, theres an achievement box that gives you 8% extra block at its max rank which would just about compensate for the lack of a kite shield. So while the stamina line doesnt increase mitigation by a huge amount, if you spend enough points in it it wont **** mitigation by a huge amount either.
Message Edited by HalflingBove on 03-20-200602:42 AM

You're wrong. The major difference between a kite shield and a buckler or even better a tower shield is that a buckler is gay and worn by healers, mages and scouts. Big giant plate wearing berserkers shouldn't be forced to use a dinner plate as a shield. The guy from SoE that came up with this particular piece of wonder needs his/her/its head examined.

Bucklers have statistics that are made for non-tanking classes. Tower shields generally have stats that are designed around the needs of a tank. Tower shields have the highest protection value. And tower shields tend to be the shields that have the +parry, +defense, and +mitigation on them.

I'm sorry, but it's asking too much to give up a tower shield, and all other arguments aside it does not fall into the role playing aspect of the class. There's a reason why Tower and Kite shields are only useable by tanks.

and your whole arguement of spend all your AE points in this line, to make it almost be the same as if i use my tower shield... do you see whats wrong with this?

instead of doing that, how about i spend my points on agility and wisdom.. gee now i have 12 seconds of not being able to be hit. 15 percent better defense, 320 points more of mitigation....

see where this is going? If your a tank, (which i hope anyone who's playing a zerker this long realizes there role) then why would you ever take this line?

-Erick

There are two big reasons why we don't like this line. #1 there are no bucklers in the game right now (that I have seen) that have really good stats for tanking. All the new legendary and fabled tower sheilds in T7 have nice combinations of str, sta, agi, mitigation, resists, defense, and parry as well as high protection factor. All the bucklers I have seen thus far are more geared towards healers with int and wis and maybe some ministration and ordination and things like that. So unless they make a buckler with all the same kind of stats as our tower sheilds then it's not worth it. #2 we don't like the look of the wimpy-looking bucklers in this game. Healers are stuck with them because that's the only kind of shield that they can use at all. Why would we want to take an AA line that forces us in the same boat as them? So unless they come out with cooler looking bucklers too then again, it's not worth it. There's also the fact that we can take the agi line and get more avoidance and the wis line and get more mitigation, both of which are nice for tanking, and only one of the abilities in each of those lines requires a certain weapon to use, unlike the sta line where 2 of the abilities require a buckler to work. Not worth it IMO.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-20-200610:40 AM

Additional info, I think I understand why they made it buckler only... it was to balance the high end game inrespect to raid tank avoidance. A shield's protection adds to your overall avoidance. The higher the protection, the more avoidance you gain. Right now Kalidon (one of the top 3 tanks in game prolly) uses the STA line during raids, his avoidance gets to 86.4%, he originally used a common rosewood buckler but has now found a tank legendary buckler, so these are definitely being itemized in tier7. Another thing alot of folks may have not considered, is the second ability you get, Gladiator's Finesse gives you 76% double attack with a buckler equipped. This means taking a 1-hander of around dmg rating 80, and swinging 176% over normal. Dual wields are balanced mechanic wise to equal 2hander stats. Since a 2hander at the top end is about 110, you can see that the effective damage rating of a 1hander with the 76% boost equals out to a dmg rating of 140.8 now you could take the wis line and gain 24% dps to increase your overall modifier which might be better, but nobody seems to know which is better yet... The actual auto-attack of a 110 2hander becomes effectively 138.6 with a 26% dps mod but since CAs are such a bigger % of your overall dps, the 26% on that could definitely eclipse the 76% double attack. Anyways, just blabbering on the 2 lines for some added dps.
Message Edited by Silelwen on 03-20-200609:30 PM

I'm actually not against the buckler looks. Roman Gladiators used bucklers as they were good defensive yet let them stay agile enough to defeat their opponents. Tower shields definitely look like their more protective, but more like something you sit on the ground in front of you and stay behind, instead of something where you actually move around and strike back at your foe.

Pfffft. NO IT"S NOT!!!!



Also, Infernous said there are 2 steps that require buckler, but in game says there are 3.
Message Edited by FightGame on 03-20-200602:54 PM

Silewen,

"I'm actually not against the buckler looks."

Are you going with the STA line yourself then? I thought you weren't even into tanking that much.

Don't worry about me.

I just love how you like to make comments on things you don't even care about at all. Of course you like the look of a buckler...not that you will ever actually be caught dead wearing one yourself. Because you don't even tank hardly at all and therefore you have no interest at all in the STA line. You just like the idea of other tanks (especially Berserkers) being forced to wear one is all. You really are nothing but a troll.

I already have a buckler... if you take the time to read my post again a few replies up you would see that I feel currently that a 76% double attack with a 1handed weapon is a serious DPS increase over our Wis line.

Currently going off just our 2nd abilities:

STR: Increase Melee Crit (Forget it's rank 8 cap)
AGI: 24% Front AOE off Autoattack
STA: 76% Double Attack with 1h weapon
WIS: 24% DPS Increase
INT: 24% Haste Increase


I'm going with STR, AGI, STA and see how that works, then swap STA with WIS and parse that and pick which is the best. I do feel that STA will be the best though, but I don't know, WIS has some good offerings.

Ok, stamina line can give a 76% chance to "double attack" when using a 1H and buckler? Are you really going to equip a buckler and 1H so you can use this ability and do more damage? Might as well equip a 2H or DW, and put points in haste or DPS for even more damage output. IMO, you'd do more damage with a 2H and 24% garaunteed increase in DPS (in wisdom line), than with a 1H and a 76% CHANCE to double attack(whatever that is exactly). Of course most of the time you won't be able to do this if you're tanking, but probably shouldn't equip a buckler if you're tanking either. If you tank most of the time, you should max out +defense (in agility line) and +mitigation (in wisdom line). If you are not tanking most of the time, you should max out DPS, Haste, Crits, etc., and preferably ones that don't require a certain weapon. Actually if you rarely tank, and want to go all out offensive, best thing to do would probably complete INT line, to reduce cast timers, since we do more damage from CA's than auto attack (which is where the haste and DPS goes). And max out crit chance, since you can crit on auto attack AND CA's.
Even if you tank 50% of the time, I would choose one or the other to specialize in, since you'll pick up a little of the other along the way.
For example, since I play the MT role most often (100% of time in a group, and 50/50 in raid), I'm maxing out +def and +mit, but in order to do this, I have to put 4 points into DPS, and 4 points into the frontal AOE thing.
Message Edited by FightGame on 03-20-200606:25 PM

Just realized I had an error in a previous post where I thought the effective damage rating on a 1hander was going to be higher than it really was... Math goes down like this

1hander 80dmg rating with 76% double attack = 140.8 Dmg Rating

2hander 110dmg rating with 24% DPS mod = 136.4 Dmg Rating


so with double attack your auto-attack will be higher thru the STA line, but I believe DPS mod goes on CAs too which means then if you aren't hitting DPS caps (100%) it prolly would be better to go that route.


This is still alot of theorizing as I haven't hit 70 with 50AAs yet, but I'll definitely be trying to find out how to get out as much DPS with a berserker as I can.
Message Edited by Silelwen on 03-20-200609:33 PM

IT IS!!!! BELIEVE IT!!!!
i was walking through QH one day where i see a 70 zerker in a raiding guild and i decide to inspect him... hes wearing a buckler.
Well i also found out he had gone the stainima line as did their MT who uses an aegis of scorn (id hope better for MT lol)
well this zerker just long term buffs in Defensive mode had 83% avoidence... thats INSANE
well 83% avoidence sounds worth it to me to wear a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] buckler sheild lol.

Theres too many replies to reply individually to, but I'll try to answer them. My point is not that a buckler has an advantage over a kite or tower shield while using this line, but that is does not have a disadvantage in terms of statistics. There is no disadvantage to using a buckler if statistics are similar, and if you are on a pvp server there can be an advantage because your enemy may mistake your class.

While most bucklers may not have stats that are good for tanking, there may be some that do. It is possible to have the exact same mitgation and stats with a buckler and a tower shield if the stats are similar. If the mitigation can be similar then a tank can take advantage of the other abilities that require a buckler without any disadvantage other than cosmetic.

And to the argument concerning the chance at a double attack with a buckler equipped, it is not a valid comparison to compare the dps of a 1h/buckler to that of a two handed weapon. A better comparison would be a 1h/buckler with the talent to a 1h/tower shield with the talent. If a person is properly speced then they will have similar mitigation and stats with those two and as crazy as it may sound a person with a buckler can tank. Additional dps while tanking is always good for keeping aggro. a 76% chance will happen every 3 swings out of 4 just about, so it is basically 2x the attack damage for 3/4th of your attacks which boils down to 75% dps give or take.

If they are going to force zerkers to wear bucklers on this line of AP, why not go the whole hog and make them wear leather and use tridents as well? Thats obviously the thinking behind this. If you are not MT or MA and you want to do DPS you have to look like a colloseum gladiator while doing it. Hopefully by the time I've maxed out my wis line they will have sorted this out. A main tank with a buckler...? /shudder

Excuse me, Silewen, but I have a hard time picturing a Zerker trying to DPS with a 1H and a blucker. I really don't see anyone going with the STA line just for the DPS. If you think it's worth it then go for it, but that seems rather silly to me.

Not to mention all the added DPS from Buckler Reversal.
While i can see this being a very viable option and makes alot of sense when you look deeper into and understand it, i dont think it will be a path or raod i take, i may try it and see how it does pan out when i eventually get a high dmg rating one hander, but not right now.
By the way, 8 ranks in crit chance in STR line is 22% chance to crit, passive ability, which works on Buckler Reversal also.

Actually this is a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] line for us, seriously. If you max gladiators revenge and you have a decent buckler then you get anywhere from a 75-80% avoidance. Having the avoidance of a brawler is just nuts. Not to mention that in the next patch buckler reversal is being made into a toggle spell. This line is seriously our best line. We smack back when we block(which is alot at 80% avoidance) we double attack 75% of the time and we get about 20% increased avoidance. True we have to use a buckler but we dont lose anything defensivly. Shield factor only adds to avoidance, there are nice bucklers out there (see t7 rare ones with 23 to sta and other stats) and our dps increases.
I honestly think this line is buged tho, there is no way the devs intended for a plate class to have a constant 80% avoidance. Before i found out about this i was going to go wis and agi. I wanted to max the +mit skill in the wisdom line and get Dragoon reflexes in agi line(basicly tsunami skill). But i have traded the agi line for sta.