Stamina Achievement line is better than people think...

Halflingbove, you keep talking about the mitigation on the shields....I've only ever seen 1 shield that actually had mitigation on it, and thats a tower shield for the quest, from the grizzle fizzle guy. It has +6? vs slashing, crushing, and/or piercing. If I could find a really nice buckler with stats I need, and actual mitigation on it, to sort of make up for the protection loss (or shield factor, which basically is avoidance), then I may consider the stamina line. Until then, I think for the plate class, that tanks most often, should go for mitigation over avoidance.

"I've only ever seen 1 shield that actually had mitigation on it, and thats a tower shield for the quest, from the grizzle fizzle guy."

There is also a legendary tower sheild that you can get from the 3rd quest in the claymore series called the Intangible Aegis of Bylze that also has a bit of mitigation on it and a lot of resists too and it has just over 1k of protection factor and 20 str and 5 sta. I use it as a backup sheild to the Grizzfazzle one and sometimes I switch to it when tanking caster mobs for the extra resists since the extra avoidance on the other one doesn't really help that much against them but the resists do.

You're right. This line is currently bugged. I've been reporting it for almost a week trying to get it fixed I even sent PMs to devs trying to get this fixed, but since multiple people have let the cat out of the bag in this thread...
If you use a buckler and take even one point of gladiator's revenge your block chance will go to 70%. Solo it is rare that you'll be hit even once a minute with mobs in front of you, and group play you'll make your healer cry with boredom.
I emphasize this is not a display bug, you will be near physically invincible to anything in your front quadrant with this ability.
My evasion in game right now reads: Base: 22.0%, Block: 70.0%, Parry: 17.1%. If I go into offensive stance I notice no difference in my performance, even if my base evasion and parry drop.
I've soloed a +3 heroic triple up solo with this skill in it's current form, but I have been trying to avoid any "exploit" situation with it, and haven been doing things like cleaning up L&Ls instead of really playing while my character is bugged like this.
Please everyone /bug this, and let's get this fixed. This gross imbalance isn't fun for anyone, I can tell you I certainly don't get any joy from the idea of trivializing the game like this. I personally love the STA line, and want to use it as it was intended, with the effect that was planned for it. I love the idea of double-attack, circular parry, and the gladiator style, but with something like this in effect you can expect every warrior to be STA line before the end of the week. And then when this bug is fixed, those same people may flip out at having to pay to respec their achievement...
Please devs, get this fixed.

Just for kicks, I redid my AA's just to see what effect Gladiators Revenge had. I maxed out Gladiators and then equpped Drelakor's Scale Shield, Small Chitin Protector, and Aegis of Scorn. My shown avoidance didn't budge. I had someone inspect me, and it also showed the same value for them as what I was seeing. With the Drelakor and Protector, my avoidance was around 47%. As I added each rank, I would see my avoidance flicker to about 80%, then immediately return back to the same value.

So right now, I'm not seeing any benefit from it at all. The skill maxed says 4.5% increase to Parry, Block, and Riposte, but I'm not seeing it.

Not only that, but Buckler Reversal was grey'd out and unavailable. Almost like it's not recognizing any buckler I equip as being a buckler.
Message Edited by Tuddar on 03-21-200602:38 PM

Im talking about the mitigation you get from the aa line that gives you 8% additional block, which would compensate for the loss of protection since all protection affects is your block percentage. Blocking is mitigation, sorry if my wording confused mitigation and avoidance, but by mitigation from a buckler I mean damage mitigation from the avoidance it provides.

It gives +1.0 for the first point then 0.5 for each point after, maxing at 4.5%. It does not give 8% additional block. If it did it would cancel out the loss, however at 4.5% you are still sub-tower shield evasion in the end.
For the poster attempting to emulate my statement, unless buckler reversal becomes usable, you are not using a buckler. Try using the Shiny Brass Shield in Buckler form (202 protection, usable by priests.) It's what I'm using on my 51 Zerker on Venekor. You can buy it from the Shady Swashbuckler on Nek docks if you've completed the HQ in the past. Or try other buckler items.

"Blocking is mitigation, sorry if my wording confused mitigation and avoidance, but by mitigation from a buckler I mean damage mitigation from the avoidance it provides."

I think you should realize that there is a huge difference between mitigation and avoidance, in order to avoid confusion. Mitigation allows you to absorb a certain amount of damage from all incoming attacks, avoidance allows you to avoid them altogether. Base, parry, and block are the different subcomponents that make up your total avoidance. They have nothing to do with mitigation. Just so you know.

I have a swashie main and just started a zerker alt for some fun and see what it feels like to take some hits. So just started perusing the board and am surprised at the dismissiveness some are giving to the double attack feature of this line. When I first looked at AA tree, stamina stood out to me as the best initial dps line. If you look on swashie board, you'll see that our wisdom line which gives a similar bonus to double attack is currently regarded by most as the best dps line. And that requires us to wield 1h with secondary empty. You guys get a buckler and can also get avoidance bonus.
76% double attack on a 1h weapon that does .75 as much as dw is a noticeable increase to autoattack dps. Also, currently the double attack is being treated as a normal 1h attack for purposes of procs (ie. should get more procs). Finally, it would not take that many points to get this and still get max dps increase in wisdom or the crit increase, might even be able to get both. If I keep playing this toon thats the way I'm going.
I realize I'm new to the class and could very well be missing something here. But dps better than dual wield or 2h which can be improved exponentially by dps boosts in other line, plus being able to use some form of shield. Sign me up.

After witnessing the stamina line in its current form, i've re-thought my final spec.

Keep in mind, the stamina line WILL be nerfed. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, but for the sake of "best tank" options, the stamina line is very powerful. Also when this line is balanced (read: nerfed) a free respec will likely be provided.

My new spec will look something like this:

Agi: 4/4/5/4/8
Sta: 4/4/8/8/0

This would provide the max double attack, coupled with Dragoon cyclone of 15%, thus being decent dps output.

It also provides the high avoidance of the stamina line, and tsunami.

I'm rather curious to know if Tsunami works with Buckler reversal. I'm currently skeptical, since when Dragoon reflexs (aka. Tsunami) is active, you can no do anything, including attack or use items like the "shocker". Something i've witnessed with my GF's inquistor leans me towards it not working. Inquistors get their mana leech buff, when she has in on, and she uses zealotry (stun+haste group buff) the mana leech will never proc. Something to do with the stun portion (now a stifle, haven't tested since it was changed). Can anyone verify if Dragoon cyclone and Buckler reversal will work in conjunction, i certainly hope my gut instinct is wrong.
Message Edited by Mjollnyr on 03-22-200611:56 AM

Although it may appear that way on the surface, it doesn't translate out that way in actuality. The reason behind it is because when your playing, your going to be using CA's in addition to auto-attack. 1h weapons tend to have a lower delay then 2h weapons, the consequence of such being that using CA's will interrupt more of your auto-attack with a 1h weapon then with a 2h weapon. So using a 1h weapon+CA's will result in a greater loss of auto-attack DPS then when using a 2h.

From a strict standpoint of auto-attack DPS what you say would be true, but when you add CA's into the picture it makes a drastic change into how your auto-attack DPS is affected.

However, that doesn't mean the STA line isn't a decent boost to DPS when tanking with a shield. It's obviously still more DPS then without, with the tradeoff being (once the AA is corrected to work as it should) you'll take a little more damage then if you were using a tower shield. But if your looking for DPS better then DW or 2h, in practice it's probably not going to work out that way.
Real proof of the pudding will be when I can get some parsers that can handle the new log outputs and then do some comparison in DPS output, since switching AA's is relatively cheap for the first couple times.
Message Edited by Tuddar on 03-22-200609:41 AM

I still feel the powerful choice for somebody who wants to DPS on raids as a berserker are as follows:

STR: 5/4/8/0/0 - Yields melee crit chance passive ability
AGI: 4/4/8/0/0 - Yields frontal AOE off auto-attack on primary weapon (this is very important for STA line possibly)

Pick ONE of the following:
WIS: 4/4/8/0/0 - Yields DPS increase that should affect CAs and Auto-attack
STA: 4/4/8/0/0 - Yields 76% double attack to a 1hander (and since now you are double attacking, you also can proc twice as much, and I believe this may even mean you can frontal AOE off the AGI line twice as often)


My personal make up will be one of the 2 options above, definitely doing the STR/AGI and will pick between WIS or STA for final choice.
Message Edited by Silelwen on 03-22-200602:00 PM

Well my post was based on data that is being gathered and posted (using parses as well as anecdotal) on the 1h double attack skills on the swashie forums. There is, at least it seems to me, some good data and trustworthy opinions that show a significant increase to autoattack dps vs. dual wield even at only 50+% double attack. Much of this is also taking into account the use of combat arts, and changes in game mechanics (including, but not limited to, reduced casting times on most melee CAs) has made the impact of what you are talking about much less significant.
Message Edited by dagoo7 on 03-22-200611:02 AM
Message Edited by dagoo7 on 03-22-200611:03 AM

Hahahahhahaa.....breath...hahahaahha

well i dont post much on here but giving the sta line a shot with 8 points into the buckler block this week and weekend will be able to see how things go and I am also the MT for raids in my guild for the most part.

I know mitigation and avoidance are two different things. I was using mitigation in the sense of damage reduction not the term as it is used in game. Avoidance mitigates damage, it just mitigates it alot more sporadically than mitigation does.

I'd have to see some parses with 2h, not with 1h and DW. For example, my 1hr has a 1.6 second delay. Even with moderate haste, thats getting auto-attack close to a 1 second swing. Combat arts are .5 seconds, and AE casts of course much longer. You start getting down into that range, and even a .5 second cast is going to cause missed swings.

I don't doubt that 1hs auto-attack DPS with double attack will out DPS a DW combo, because DW weapons also have low weapons delay and therefore CA interruption will be the same with both. However, against 2h weapons I don't think that's going to be so. Parses on the swashie forums can only taken into account DW and 1h comparisons, because they can't use 2h.

Well not like me and Kal are best buddies in the game, but wondered where you have to backup insulting him like that. He was the first lvl70 worldwide fighter (2nd to lvl70 worldwide I believe, but I think the first was a caster or healer or something...)

Think on the insult that its just the fact he said that hes one of the top 3 tanks world wide. In a game like this you cant say any tank is the best theres no stats you can go by. You can say hes one of the best geared tanks in the game or something like that. But as for the one of the best tanks in the game there is no way to prove that. How fast you lvl doesnt prove anything. Not trying to start a fight but just saying people tend to take offence to people saying well so and so is the best. the only way to say somebody in this game was the best would be to take out all grping all raiding and then look at everybudys gear. Oh but some testing done last night with the sta line it is way overpowered i solod the drake on breeding for the hq last night. Will post more on it during the week and this weekend

I respec'd last night, and i was completely blown away by the dps increase 76% double attack provides.

Combining Double attack with OW, and eventually (when i get more aa's) Dragoon cyclone, there will be ALOT of dps to be had.

I wonder what the nerfed stamina line will be like?

Edit: using a 71.2 DR 1h weapon. Double hitting in a group for upwards of 600, so totally 1.2k across two hits.
Message Edited by Mjollnyr on 03-23-200608:14 AM

Even having done the math on paper ahead of time I myself was blown away by how big of an improvement the double-attack boost was. What's really scary is if you have a potent longbow, and you land a good double attack. It's one of my bread and butter techniques in PVP now.

As for nerfed STA line, let's not go there, I like this line too much to see it nerfed, and it does work out pretty evenly on paper in my FAQ, given it only wins in cases where tanking and DPS are of concern, not one or the other.