[p]Insofar as it effects rangers... Hmm..[/p][p] Hate reduction.. They're nerfing Primal Instict by 35% of it's overall value.. O.k....[/p][p] I can only hope that they are doing this in tandem with the release of an upgrade for Primal Instinct. It did not scale up at 14 Levels like all of our other spells did, It's not a Legendary (I.E. 52/55/58 ) spell, so maybe they made it too high to begin with and couldn't add another spell that gave us 56% hate reduction in the Mid-60's. It's never too late to put an upgrade in now at the mid-60 level that scales up around where it was before the change, or at a bare minimum add in a new hate reducer in RoK that's an upgrade to Primal Instinct...But that's a ways off still....[/p][p] Bows - Well I for one wouldn't mind a hate-reducing proc on a bow or an adornment that procs even 1.2 times a minute that reduces threat by even 200 would be something I think we all would consider when you take into consideration the aggression changes we're going to have to deal with very soon. Grats everyone on Rigid Scale bows that have them, or Star Darkened, or even the Sarik Bows from L-1 of EH.. It's going to get nasty all over again.. And let's not even talk about ammunition.. blech...[/p][p]As a general thought, class armor - The Legendary and the Fabled EOF stuff - Congrats to those who have it, and congrats again to the changes where the chest/mob/drop is going to check the raid/group to see if people have the set armor and drop what's needed. It's too bad this change came so late, because after the release of RoK it's basically going to make all this stuff Obsolete anyways. Good to see this change go in, let's hope it's not as buggy as some of the other "Random" or "Controlled" things we've seen before.[/p][p] We're all going to have to adjust our play style with the aggro changes, and items like the Crown of Cynosure or anything that increases our chances of a hate reduction proc that doesn't require us to get into melee range so we can burn elude as well as surveillance would be a welcome change if you ask me. It looks like things are going to switch more towards hate reduction now instead of dps.[/p][p] [/p][p]Thoughts? Discuss?[/p][p] -Hexus Lupis-[/p]
I'm not too worried about the hate changes... Supposedly they are adding a raid wide buff to all fighter classes and the bruiser one is a +16% hate reduction to all non fighter classes, and 16% hate for fighters... And even if they don't we'll persevere. Won't take us too long to figure out what to do.And even if they don't add that in, I can't imagine them not adding in a lot of hate reduction procs in the next x-pack, just because there are already a couple and I cant imagine them doing anything but making bigger and better versions of the gear they have now.
[p]Alright, for the sake of clarity, let's just assume from here on out that when I talk about _Any_ bow I'm speaking of the top-echelon fabled dragon/demi-god drop bow that everyone wants. I.E. Rigid Scale, Star Darkened, Tunare's Rage. I know the torn ligament has a de-agro proc, but that's not really a high-end bow.[/p][p] Currently I'm sacrificing DPS already by waiting for the tank to get solid aggro, and I'm even pulling mobs off the tank at random junctures with Focus-Aim Auto-ranged shots hitting for 10,500-11,200 damage. You throw in 10% chance to double shot from AA's, 10% from set armor, and 25% from Illusory Arm, and you Focus Aim, and that gets nasty, I've seen 45k of damage just from me in 2 back-to-back focus-aim auto-ranged shots. Every little bit is going to help in situations like that.[/p][p] Everyone says Fix the Hawk.... The Hawk is fine as-is, and if you need to cancel it, just hit the hotkey again so you can use your stealth-based CA's. It really does help at times, but you have to time it between AE's so it doesn't just go in and get wtfpwned.[/p][p] De-Agro Adornment would be nice. [/p][p]I don't think the epic should be a bow. (/duck) [/p][p]The Epic would be fine as a sword, but jeeze, put +range and +pierce on it or something we will at least use...[/p][p]There's a proclivity towards good piercers with less of an emphasis on slashing weapons, so don't give us a weapon with +8 slashing... Our Arrows do PIERCE damage, get a clue! WE DO NOT MELEE, and if we do it's on such a limited basis that it's laughable comparatively.[/p][p] [/p][p]More Thoughts?[/p][p]-Hexus-[/p]
[p]With all 1h'ers being 'dual weildable' in the near future, we might have a higher selection of slashing weapons available to us. (but I agree I wouldnt want an epic with ONLY +8 slashing)[/p][p]I wouldnt mind the Epic being a sword as long as it had something useful for a ranger that has a ranged playstyle. (a melee proc would totally suck) + ranged / +slash/pierce, de aggro proc on it maybe, would all be good. [/p][p]"Our Arrows do PIERCE damage, get a clue!" [/p][p]Our bows (arrows) still use the "ranged" skill to determine if they hit or not. The damage is piercing, but the "pierce" skill does NOT affect the hit % of our bows or the damage our arrows do AFAIK.[/p]
[p]Thoughts for Rangers in ROK: It's probably too late for this as most of the foundation is already there but here goes anyway. [/p][p]Hate management is going to be a big issue with Primal Agility going down - that line did get upgraded every 14 levels until we hit 67 where we should have gotten an upgrade, but with a 50% cap on hate reduction that I guess the devs thought the upgrade at 67 would not be worth it. Who knows maybe we will get an added upgrade in at 67 (following the 14 lvl rule this would put the next one in at 81, so they may just give us that next upgrade at 80). [/p][p]What I would like to see is a new spell added, something along the lines of ancient teachings that would give Rangers a small hate transfer as well (not instead of primal agility). Something that is until canceled (since we do have open concentration slots) but would not be a permanent buff on the person. I guess what I'm thinking about is a cross between the trick arrow and the zerker proc (Rage or blood flow I think). The buff would trigger 2.8 times a minute upon successful attack (any damage - bow, melee, CA) transfer 10% of the rangers hate to person it is cast on for the next 10 seconds (or something along those lines the numbers just for example). Adding in a spot in an AA line that would increase the trigger %, duration and hate transferred would be nice too. If the buff could be used Raid wide, and not just group, it would give Rangers a bit more utility in Raids that we have been asking for and counteract some of the reduction in the primal agility line.[/p][p]Your thoughts on an adornment with hate reduction are ok, but I don't think it would be enough reduction to justify adding it to the equipment. I would like to see more hate reduction equipment, but I would like to see the procs affect the encounter, not just the mob I have targeted.[/p][p]With the +pierce, +slash type additions, does this actually affect our bow damage or just the melee? Because if you are using field points you are doing crushing damage, and I don't think rangers have a crushing skill. I was always under the impression that what ever arrow you used, the modifier was your ranged skill and that the +pierce/slash/crush was always just for your melee weapons.[/p][p]More equipment with +%crit on it - not +% melee crit - make + crit = melee, spell, heal, range etc.[/p]
[p][size="x-small"][face="verdana,geneva"]I personally think that there should be a bow offered as a final reward for all future epic quest lines. I'm sorry, but ranged is not a play style. Most of our combat abilities are ranged, our ranged autoattack is where a large part of our damage come from. It is NOT a play style. It is how we are designed to function. Melee is more of a choice or style in my opinion. [/face][/size][/p][p][size="x-small"][face="verdana,geneva"]Why shouldn't the epic quests include a bow? If I put in the work, don't I deserve a weapon that allows me to actually do my job as a ranged warrior?[/face][/size] I have plenty of melee weapons of questionable value to chose from. Assasins are melee. We are ranged. We deserve a bow as much as any other class deserves a reward that allows them to function as they were designed. If you chose not to accept the bow and instead opt for a sword or dagger, that is your choice. I want the choice to actually work towards that bow. I say there **SHOULD** be a bow offered.[/p]
Dirty Jack Rackham wrote: I disagree with the epic being a bow. Who the hecks wants an epic item, that took months to attain, to be rendered useless by the first fabled bow that drops. I agree with the chief that the epic should be something that complements our bows and ranged attacks. That way it'll still have value no matter what bow we happen to be wielding. Our epic should have + range, + range crits, etc. I want something that'll make my bow better, not another piece of junk that's going to rot in a bank slot.
[p] [size="x-small"][face="verdana,geneva"]And just how many rangers do you think will actually see that fabled bow drop? And IF it drops, what are their chances of actually winning said fabled bow? +ranged? +ranged crits? Do you honestly think that you'll see these modifiers on any melee weapon that they will inevidably try and foist off on rangers as a reward for enduring any epic quest? They're "fixing" the Qeynos Kilij, a weapon that actually proc'ed off ranged. It's one useful feature for rangers and pretty much the only weapon that offered rangers something useful in the Claymore quest line. A bow would certainly be more useful than a ring or bracelet that will be replaced by the first fabled piece that drops in whatever will pass for a dungeon in the next expansion. [/face][/size][/p][p][size="x-small"][face="verdana,geneva"]Again. If you don't want to accept the bow and opt for a different choice, so be it, but there are many of us who think it's high time rangers get their due.[/face][/size][/p]
That's what the other classes get. I think a bow would be appropriate. There are 2 ways to make these quests. 1. The reward is something that will be used for the duration of the expantion or 2. the reward is something that will get upgraded when you get a better drop. In both cases a Ranger only bow reward would be completely on par with what other melee classes would be getting.
Dirty Jack Rackham wrote: [p]Its going to be fairly close to the same amount of ppl that can actually KILL the end game mobs. In this case, Mayong... then Tarinax, God King, Darathar. Last time I checked, not everyone was killing Mayong, so the only ppl this change would help would be ones that just arent fortunate enough to see SDL drop. Thats a RNG problem, not an equipment problem. You think the legendary versions going to be so **** that everyone that actually gets it will want to use it? pssh yeah right. So the problem them becomes, should the bow be better then the bow that drops off the Mayong? Meh.. In this instance no cause SoD was a joke to complete. Claymore? haha yeah maybe before they nerfed Tarinax.[/p][p]Anyways, Im not against having a bow as a reward per say, but the only ppl its going to help are the ones that have no luck with drops. If they give us a bow in RoK, it had better damn well be the best bow in the game, and it had better be a super long, pain in the butt, difficult to complete type of deal, because if its easily going to be replaced by an instanced dropped bow, theres no point to doing the epic quest. However if its going to be the best of the best, then it should be hard to come by. [/p]
Dirty Jack Rackham wrote: [p]Dude, you just don't get it. And what's with the large font?[/p][p]An item that complements a bow is good for all rangers, not just for the disgruntled few who demamnd a bow because they don't have a clue how the mechanics of the game works.[/p][p]Edit: Just for you, maybe they'll put a bow in equal to a T7 fabled since you seem to be so angry about this. For the rest of us, I'm hoping we get something we can use. I have plenty of items on me with + range. What I don't have is a fabled T7 long bow. I'd think that if the trend continues as it has in T5, T6, and T7, we'll have a better chance of seeing an item that complements ranged attack than we will a bow. But keep screaming in large font. It's worked so well so far. /boggle [/p]
[p]Yeah great .. and every nonraider should use maybe Bylze/Raincaller still with 80 .. or .. oh yeah .. maybe a imbued T8 bow, since we were so used to have only imbued bows until level 60+ :roll: [/p][p]And btw.: Why is a melee-weapon not useless with the first fabled weapon that drops ? And since they take out the dualwields and all will be onehand, there will even be more available.[/p]
[p] While I like the idea of more + ranged and ranged crit items, equal spell damage crit items would favour us over assassins. Sadly, RoK, in my opinion will continue to have melee crit items out of the wazoo, and we will have to make up the slack as best we can.[/p][p]Just my 2 cp.[/p][p]Canul[/p][p]Renagades AB[/p][p] [/p]
[p]I would like to see a bow offered more often for the simple fact that a lot of classes use them. Why they aren't listed more is beyond me. Sure rangers use them to full effect, but there are still a ton of classes that use them. As for our Epic choice, for me it will depend on how powerful it is really. If it is a mid-high choice that is replacable in certain raids I would rather it be something other than a bow. Because I will always want the best bow available because no other piece of gear makes such a large impact on my dps. If the epics are going to be made as the best piece of gear in that slot ingame then yeah, I want it to be a bow. Of course if it is that good then the chances of me ever seeing it in a timely manner are slim at best, but I would like to see it available. [/p][p]Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server[/p]
I suspect raiders can never be satisfied .. if its not the best bow they will complain that the quest is senseless .. if it is the best bow around they will complain that there is no sense in raiding because there will be no chance of a better bow
[p]Well "Dude", I think I get it just fine. We *are* talking about an epic WEAPON quest. The functional word here is WEAPON. It's not an epic "item that complements a bow" quest. Now, you tell me just what type of WEAPON do you think is most likely going to have the specific ranged enhancements deemed most useful to rangers? Give up? I would think a bow would be most likely to have the +ranged and +ranged crit enhancements rangers actually need. [/p][p]You aren't going to find them on any melee weapon. Melee procs and enhancements will only affect melee weapons from now on. And from what I hear, no matter weapons you equip, only the active ones will be of any benefit to you. If your bow is active, those melee weapons will give you no more benefit than if they were packed away in your bank box. Once you to start melee, then they will imbue you with whatever mythical melee buffs they possess.[/p][p]You really need to clarify your position here Gareorn. Your edit seems to contradict what you initially state is your chosen position on the subject, that being that rangers have so many bows to chose from that adding one to an epic weapon quest is a total waste of time and we should be given an option to pick some bauble or adornment while others get weapons that are actually geared towards their chosen profession. If I'm wrong here, please enlighten me as to what it is you are actually asking for from the ranger's epic WEAPON quest? [/p][p]I actually agree with you in that rangers need more ranged enhancing items (even if you appear to belay this in your edit). This could be corrected by simply adding the corresponding ranged enhancement to any existing or future items that enhance melee so that it would actually boost both and not one over the other. By item I mean jeweler, armor, and the like. Weapons should only have their proper weapon specific enhancement.[/p][p]I don't believe it was ever stated that a bow should be the only choice. If I gave that particular impression then I do apologize. I'm sure they will also offer more melee weapons to you that will also be replaced with the first fable drop in their sparkling new dungeons. Rangers at least deserve a bow as a choice. It is our primary weapon after all. [/p][p]You know, I did think of one other item that I would actually be happy to accept as a reward should it be offered. A 34 slot (the number is open for debate) arrow summoning quiver with actual ranged enhancements, say +5 ranged and +2 ranged crit. The arrows would/should/could be of the same caliber that are summoned by Bazgul or Ichorstrand. While not technically a weapon, I would personally find this acceptable. The fact that this is an epic quest justifies the summoned arrows being of the same approximate caliber as those of the renowned bows found in Deathtoll.[/p][p]Now , what ideas do others have as to what an acceptable reward for this epic WEAPON quest should be if not a bow? [/p]
Shalla@Valor wrote: [p]Sorry, but you only got it half right. If the epic is in fact a bow, there would honestly be no point in a raiding ranger to even do the quest if there is a better bow to be had that dropped from an instance. However, the reverse isnt true. Sure the most important slot on a ranger is the ranged slot, but last time I checked, we had more then just a ranged slot to put gear into.[/p][p]If the current trend continues for epic quests, that being in order to get the fully empowered version of the weapon, requires you have to kill one of (usually the hardest) raid mob in the game for that expansion then chances are, its going to be awhile before MOST raiding rangers will see it. Now, lets just say for arguement, that you've been busting your butt trying to get your epic finished, you're almost done, you just need that last big boss kill to finish it off. How would you feel after doing what should be a lengthy series of quests, to find that a better bow drops off an easier raid mob? I think I'd be pretty ticked off about that. Thats countless hours of hard work down the drain because theres something better to be had from somewhere else.[/p][p]This has nothing to do with never being satisfied, it has to do with common sense. There are still plenty of reasons to raid, even if the epic does turn out to be the best bow in the game, however, there isnt much point in doing an epic quest for a bow, if you're already killing everything and theres a better bow to be had by a drop. [/p]
Dirty Jack Rackham wrote: Honestly, I'll be very surprised if theres a choice in the matter of RoK epics. You seem to be forgetting one small thing here. Everyone is going to have a different item. Thats already 24 items they have to make, do you actually think they are doing to double that, JUST so everyone can have a choice? I certainly dont think they will. Yes a bow would be the logical first choice, but they can pretty much do anything they want. By that I mean, even though they are bringing all melee weapons in line, the code is there to enable a melee weapon to proc off ranged (Im not saying this will happen, but its always a possiblity). Its going to be class specific, and if all 24 classes get a slightly overpowering weapon (provided they could get it right the first time around) then is it really overpowering? As I said in my last post, if its not going to be the best bow in the game, theres no point in making it our epic. If it is the best bow in the game, then great, but at this point, I'll be happy with anything as long as its something useful, and will continue to be useful for the duration of the expansion. An easily replaced subpar bow isnt what I want.
[p]Nesse@Oasis wrote: [/p] [p]I can't really fault your logic here Nesse, this does seem to be the way things seem to be headed. But if not a bow, then what? No matter what the reward is, there will almost always be something better offered by some high end raid mob if you are running with a hardcore raid guild that can actually tackle the area. For many rangers, these quests may be their best shot at obtaining a good all around bow. Why not have a legenday reward that will give good utility and be a decent choice as an entry level raid bow for those that choose to go that route? [/p][p]The final fabled version should be a very good bow, but I disagree that it needs to be the best. It should not be trash by any means. A very long quest deserves a proper reward. How many of us (rangers) are still using Rain Caller at 70 because most of the other bows that are readily available to us still don't compare to this level 57 heritage quest? I have two bows I carry. Rain Caller and Torn Ligament. Rain Caller is actually the better of the two bows even though Torn Ligament is ~10 levels higher. [/p][p]How many rangers took the Qeynos Kilij because it proc'd off ranged? How many are cursing SOE now that they decided to "fix" the bug that allowed it to proc of ranged? What other item offered by the Qeynos Claymore quest line was of any real use to a ranger? Was Kilij the best one hander in the game? No. It's only real appeal was the utility of proc'ing of ranged. Yes, I was one of the lucky ones to actually complete the quest. Yes, I wish a decent bow had been available as melee weapons are far to easy to acquire. [/p][p]Again, if not a bow then what? What other item is as class defining to a ranger as a bow?[/p]
