Anybody know why all my messages are deleted for invalid HTML?? I really would like to contribute to this discussion. Message Edited by Lightomen on 05-04-2006 03:45 PM
Why are we always talking DPS? Because it is the gauge used to measure effectiveness to Raids. Why do healers talk HPS? Same reason, only healers have buffs and debuffs and some DPS to add to their HPS. We have sub-par DPS and nothing else to add to a raiding force that they can't get elsewhere and with better DPS. I have POISE too so what? Stream of Arrow should work RIGHT with or without Poise and right now it is anorexic and I cancel it, more often the not, before it ever runs out. At best, with Poise and raid strength, it can maintain 500 DPS and that is just not good enough. I have more masters then Adept3 and only 2 Adelpt 1s from level 55 to 70 abilities. I use legendary poisons. My strength, self buffed is 400ish. My DPS is 750 on long fights, usually Epic named mobs, to 1200 on short group fights, usually trash adds. We have an assassin in guild who constantly out DPSes everyone, and not by a little. I am talking by 300 - 400 DPS. We were in the same group so buffs were not a factor. I felt I was hitting all my spells and CAs right on time. Then DPS is posted and what a disappointment. Beat by the Assassin and the necros pet (forget about adding the necro also). Conjurer is not yet high enough to raid but that one is coming soon, at 63 he is already on the DPS list and not far behind. Most of the time we compare our DPS to assassins because pre-CR/LU13 we were the same until level 20. To some post Desert of Flames rangers this may seem incomprehensible but it is true. Rangers and Assassins were both Predators from level 10 to 19, then LU13 and the Combat Revamp changed all that. Rangers were the only class that really benefited from the Process "Bug" because of the 6s delay on ranged weapons (our bow) and since most of our damage comes from ranged CAs the Process "Bug" really benefitted us. Assassins did not benefit hardly at all because they have 2, yes 2, ranged CAs that I could find (there may be more and if so I am sure it wll be pointed out). So lets look at a few disparities: 15 minute recast spells: Decapitate -vs- Sniper Shot. Sniper Shot (Master I) does 4600 - 7700 with 5s cast -vs- Decapitate (Adept 1) does 5400 - 9050 and a .3s cast. That is a DPS difference of 1230 -vs- 24000 and the recast time on his spell is already at 14m 55s and mine is at 15m. And which is more likely to get interrupted by a raid-wide AE? Mine. Debuffs: Enmesh -vs- Vines Both Snare target but our's debuffs HEAT(??) while assassin's debuff Poison. Now I don't know about many of you rangers out there but I only have 3 CAs that are heat based damage, one requires stealth and another requires range, both of which are hard to come by in Solo encounters and some raid encounters. Constriction -vs- Cover Fire Both reduce target defense, ours more then theirs. However, theirs further reduces mitigation versus all physical damage. Buffs: Fiendish Villainy -vs- Cloak of the Forest Both buff AGI (Does AGI mean anything to a DPS class?) but theirs buffs DPS while ours buffs Attack Speed. I get a Haste of 43% from a Master I spell, but the Assassin gets 49% DPS from the Adept I. Am I missing something here? Is Haste that important to a Ranger, and if so, then why the disparity between buffs? Shouldn't our Haste be higher then 43% then? Off suit abilities: As previously stated, Assassins have 2 ranged CAs that do very little damage and I would say few probably ever use them. That being the case, why do we have 6 melee CAs? Why are our Master Strikes melee CAs?
haha her name is Shimmer, which i think is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] sexy name. Message Edited by Lord_Toronaga on 05-04-2006 01:23 PM
I will add from experience in several raids that I enjoy the ability to stand well outside AE range and continue my DPS while others are jousting or dying. There are also mobs that can teleport their targets quite a ways away from where the encounter was originally. In these encounters the ranger in hands down better at DPSing than an Assassin. As the Devs state time and again, DPS is very situational.
Is it just me or are people really having more fun whining about how they can't play their toon instead of taking the time to learn how to be effective with their toon? SOE created the world and then gives us the tools (read Toons) to manipulate the world based on a set of rules. Would Rangers be complaining as much if, for example, our melee skills were increased to monk levels but our ranged abilities were reduced? Our DPS would go up (or at worst, stay the same) but would we still be Rangers? I think the real question that people should be asking themselves is a simple, "Am I having fun playing the toon under these rules?" If not, then why are you playing it? I know a lot of people will answer, "it's because of the time invested in the toon" but really the only investment you've made IS time. We all play this game because the time spent in it is supposed to be fun. Doesn't it make more sense to spend your time playing a character that is enjoyable to play instead of complaining about a character you no longer enjoy? By the way, I DO enjoy my Ranger and I have been here for a little while. I've played Rangers (or their equivilent) in every MMO I've been in since UO. I look at these as challenges to be met and not as personal attack made by the company who created the game.
Why is the Sniper Shot -vs- Decapitate not a valid comparison? They are both our 15 minute spells, read - big hitters. Rain and Selection going critical should not be necessary for me to maintain DPS with my evil twin. You will use them and then what? Cycle thru our 2-5s casting CAs to get maybe 500 DPS while for the next 3 minutes the assassin puts on a clinic on why rangers are not on par with him. I hate to say your guild assassin is a serious slacker. I have had Selection and Rain both go critical to the tune of 5.5k AE and still got beat on DPS because after those 2 attacks we are in effect neutered for the next 3 minutes, except for 2 spells with mismatched timers that are capable of 2k+ damage. That aside though. Why are our Master Strikes a melee CA? Why are our Buffs numerically different? 43% Attack Speed for a Master I -vs- 49% DPS for an Adept I? There are also mobs that can teleport their targets quite a ways away from where the encounter was originally. In these encounters the ranger in hands down better at DPSing than an Assassin. Interesting, because at range, the Black Queen still sent me packing. Oh yeah.. All the way to the tower on the opposite side of the zone. Do not, for one minute, think you being at range will stop this.
/agree Staghorn Sniper is our Decapitate. Rain is our AE. Assassins skills are much harder hitting. And I need to remind the Black Queen that I was outside of AE so there is no way she ported me out of the room. If my guild recruits another assassin I am gonna drop out of top 5 damage! Then they might make me play my Mystic.. OH GOD NO!!!! Not a healer! /tongue-in-cheek off!!! Message Edited by USAFJeeper on 05-04-2006 04:41 PM
:smileyvery-happy: We pick the toon we most identify with as our Main. That is my Ranger. I love bows and sneaking around and being able to kill stuff. Pretty much all I have left is the bow, very little sneaking, and my DPS at 70 is what I had at 60 Pre-KoS. When you are level 70, do me a favor, delete your toon and start a new one. Better yet get it to 70 with a 60+ tradeskill and let me know how willing you will be to "just play another toon". My current guild is level 49.5 and all my friends are level 70. I should not have to spend another 6 months getting another toon to 70 so I can rejoin them and rerolling my Ranger as an Assassin is never gonna happen. I have 2 toons at level 32 and trust me, they are getting some work now. But I still love my ranger and just wish he would get a shade more DPS and the ability to scout.
First of all, if you are in a raiding guild, you can't just "turn off the parsers and go lalala". If you like to be good at what you do, then you can't do that, either. Many people are happy just having fun, killing stuff in a group, but there are those who demand more, too. Our guild necro can go AFK with just his pet attacking and match my DPS just about (he is pretty geared). But we know summoners are just downright badass right now, and will get "adjusted". Our assassin does more DPS 95% of the time. I sometimes win when I have Rain up with Focus. On big named mobs which last a long time, it's not even close. If the mob AEs a lot and they joust, I match him about half the time. Remember that the assassin, when jousting, has some Range CAs to cycle through just like we have melee ones. Finally, remember there is a difference between clearing trash mobs and the real fights. It's the real fights that count, in raid terms. I haven't yet maxed out my Ranger, so I think I still have some gains to be made, but I don't think I could be in the same league as the assassin. That's not counting arrow costs and such. More work remains to be done. Part of the problem might be the relative lack of decent bows. Has anybody found a good one in T7?
I agree wholeheartedly, like I said in my post, I've played a Ranger for quite a while and enjoy all the aspects of the class. I also agree that to give up on the toon at 70 and start over wouldn't be my 1st choice as long as I'm still having fun with the toon. If I'm no longer having fun playing, what difference would it be if the toon was 7 or 70? My position in regards to the OP (as well as many other posts on the board) is that the only thing people are looking at is that Holy of Holies, the Mighty DPS and in my opinion they are missing out on a large part of what makes this particular class a blast to play. Do I wish I could hit harder? yes! Do I wish I could stealth my may through KoS? You bet I do! But the fact that I can't run blithly through the middle of the zone and have to work my way from point A to point B is where a lot of the fun comes from. It's my opinion that we, as a class, are pretty close to fixed after the last couple of patches but a few minor tweeks would be better. I do not agree, however with the OP that SOE (or any MMO operator) "Hate" any of the classes in thier game. After all, why create a situation where a sizable number of your subscribers threaten to quit paying?
I'm loving my Ranger. I started him as an alt just before the nerf to get an idea of befor and after, and as he's just about to catch up to my 56th lvl Brigand I have come to realise I'm hooked on my Ranger and I now have 2 mains. Really looking forward to Echoes of Faydwer as I have a hunch it might be an interesting expansion for Rangers... I may even have to start a new Ranger to really get the whole Kelethin experience
I am really starting to agree with you about SOE not caring about Rangers. Our AA thread, after NUMEROUS requests, still hasn't been stickied. I'm starting to think we don't even have a MOD here (guess we'll find out after THIS thread gets locked - sorry in advance). Is it that hard to make an VERY USEFUL thread a sticky? If we can only have so many, they can DROP the AQ20 thread. I don't think it would be sorely missed since it's had one comment this year... I apologize now for the rant. All I want is a little lovin from the MODs...
As far as mods go, I have had great experiences with Truxker. I am not telling 500 people to send him stupid pm's about anything. However, I am sure if you have a legitimate question or concern he may be able to help. Now, hehe, rangers...dps... I have been working on my dps for some time now...it seems to be an on going thing for us as a class. Dont get used to doing things this way or that because it seems it will change as soon as you have mastered it. As of right now, I am very happy with my recent mastery of my ranger. I think (with the right arrows of course) that I can dish out great dps when I get my strategy working properly. That means using my thorny trap, using my recently acquired root attack along with my cheap shot...backing off every opportunity I get to unleash damage from afar. Using my leg shot M2 on stuns or roots to slow down the mob and get more ranged off... At level 56, My strength doesnt even hit 200 unless I eat the right food. My agility is, of course, kick **** around 300 (I believe). I know I am not maxxed out with adept III's, I just had like 3 or so made and cant even use them yet. However, I am happy because I FEEL like a ranger when I am fighting. I look like a ranger when I am fighting. When using all of the knowledge accrued over time, kiting, back attacking, backing off for ranged, I feel like one bad dude. I know I am not the best dps, I know I dont even compare to some rangers...but it is enough for me to play and be happy to play. I still occassionally have had groups mourn the loss of my DPS when I leave group, I still have the occasional watcher gawk at someone kiting effectively....I relish being more capable of helping other people out of a combat jam (people who /yell) than other classes. The other night I had a few opportunities in Sinking Sands to do this, on one I failed, but the others I helped and their thanks is something other classes wont be able to get. What other class can peel of a group of mobs from a dying dirge....we can hit SoA while chasing down the mobs and get their attention real fast. All in all, I am very happy right now. I see the devs having an eye on us...aka the arrow issue isnt fixed but I have confidence in them finding a solution. The dps tiers arent perfected right now...but it isnt US that is overpowered anymore, so we dont have to fear the nerfer. Other classes can be the ones looking in the rear view mirror wondering if that cop just saw them take out a ^^^ blue con. The AA's, these things were just put in game not long ago. Sure there are problems /cough bounty /cough as well as others. But look around...its not just us...and look at the expansion coming out...they are redoing the aa's as we know them I believe. I think this form of aa's was just a "come get your feet wet" type of thing. Anyway, I could be wrong, and in no way am I saying that the OP is "wrong". I just believe that we ARE getting attention from the dev's, and I belive it is the attention we want....just maybe not as fast as some of us would like. This is a big game though...and the staff isnt enormous working on the problems. I am having fun though...and that is all that matters to me in the long run, otherwise, I would not be playing. (Cripes, you know I must even like these forums...I cant get away from them either lmao) Good Luck and I hope everyone can enjoy the game as much as I do. Peace Health and Happiness Saihung Message Edited by Saihung23 on 05-05-2006 10:27 AM
I did a similar post a while back, and have changed my views.. And I still have not released what I said id release, even though it proved me both right and wrong.. But first you must understand that its simply diffrent mechanics. Lets talk about the assassin first and how you would play the assassin. Assassins get 4-5(leaving out punishing blade) sneak attacks, they get 1-2 positional attacks without the use of stealth. This means that at the start of a fight an assassin is able to use 3 backstabs rather quickly (regular going invis before the fight, masked attack, and then surviel) This means that they can only hold backstabs at the start of the fight, once every 10 seconds, then once every 30 seconds. So to continue this DPS inbetween backstabs - assassins get 3 dots while having the ability to auto attack during this. While assassins do have the ability to use ranged much as rangers do, the casting times are much higher in many cases. the lowest casting time for a ranged art for an assassin is 1.5 seconds. Leaving this DPS to spike down and up for a great period of time. Rangers do all there dps through quick attacks. We get one dot, and we have 2 stealthed attacks (leaving out emberstrike). This means we require more of those bow auto attacks to get us through the day. So this means while we do not get the high backstabs like assassins do, this means we do anywhere from 250-2k per bow attack, and then 1k'ish per auto attack, then move in and out of melee depending on what the circomstance calls for. Our melee abilities are designed so we can cycle through all of them for 3/4 the time of the non hasted Auto attack delay of our bow. Hasted, it is designed so that our melee abilities match the delay of our bow. Meaning that if I go into melee, I can easilly put down a snaring shot, or precise shot and spike 1.5k-2k dps (depending on how procs and poisons go). For the poster who said rangers had greater AE's than assassins, this is false. I consider DoTs, and single attacks the same. Assassins also have quicker recasts on there AE's (30 seconds for one - and I believe 3 mins for the other?) While rain of arrows is a great single target and will do amazing damage in all situations - single target or ae. Its the same as an assassin who wants to put a mighty dot on there target. The only diffrence is, dots take 10-15 seconds to reach there full damage.
here's how I judge it. I can solo kill a solo 2 up blue heroic, and I can solo kill 2 teamed heroic blues. I am satisified. I don't whine about this class is better than my class - or why can't I be the uber one. I am a Ranger - I will nail that apple on top your head from 65m out. You will run up to me with 6 arrows sticking out of you only to be debuffed snared and as i track back filled with some more. Play to enjoy your class and have fun - or get some cheese to go with the whine. I like my Ranger ........
i have never posted before.....but i have been reading posts here for awhile now. I played a ranger since launch day, and i know all the changes that have been made. I did take a huge break for about a year during which i played WoW and a couple other MMO's. I recently started again and had to re-adjust to playing a ranger because of the changes post LU19. But the bottom line and why i feel like i want to post now is because of lorelady....i have fun playing period and i have played other classes and i dont have playing other ones. im not trying to cause conflict but i just wanted to let everyone know that i really enjoy our class. im only level 46 but 3 weeks ago i was 26 i have never had as much fun during any MMO than i have in the past few weeks. mokujin 46 ranger unrest
Useless is a little strong I think. But you can't look at individual parses and say anything conclusive.
