So what do we want from our might be, possibly, Soon(tm) revamp?

Also would like to be able to get the caster's version of the Mark of Awakened.

Then there are the effects on musical instruments on the bards buffs.

Wailing ellusion:

If a lute is equip increase chance to block by 5%
If a Drum is equip increase chance to Riposte by 5%
If a Flute is equip decrease damage from noxious spells by 5%
if a Horn is equip decrease damage from Combat arts by 5%

Bria's:

If a Lute is equip add HP regen by 50% of Bria's Power regen
If Drum is equip adds 400 to groups power pools.
If Flute is equip increase max Power regen cap by 25.
If a Horn is equip adds 10 to power when damage is taken.

Boon:

If a lute is equip adds 10 crushing damage to all melee attacks.
If a Drum is equip adds 10 Slashing damage to all melee attacks
If a Flute is equip adds 10 Disease damage to all melee attacks
If a Horn is equip adds 10 Piercing damage to all melee attacks

Death Barer:

If a lute is equip, if Lute is equip bard get 50 HP replenishing wards
If a Drum is equip increase damage from all bards Combat arts by 20%
If a flute is Equip increase damage from all bards Spell arts by 20%
If a Horn is equip, Attacker takes 100 Disease damage in Feedback.

Purcussion of Stone:

If lute is equip adds 200 HP ward when Stone skin absorbs damage.
If a Drum is equip targets DPS and haste increase 50% until stone skin is absorbed.
If a Flute is equip adds 100 to targets power when stone skin absorbs damage.
If a horn is equip adds 200 damage in feedback when Stone skin absorbs damage.

Noxious:

If lute is equip 10% of noxious damage is reflected back to caster.
If Drum is equip adds 20% of Noxious resists to physical Mit.
If Flute is equip 5% of noxious damage is added to power.
If horn is equip noxious damage is taken attacker's noxious mit is debuffed by 500 for 12 seconds.

Rianna's:

If Lute is equip hate gain by scouts is lowered 10%
If Drum is Equip hate gain by Fighters is raised 10%
If Flute is equip hate gain by mage is lowered 10%
If Horn is equip hate gain by healers is lowered 10%

Tombs:

If Lute is equip adds 20% of tombs damage to casters HP
If Drum is equip spells can cause tombs to proc.
If Flute is equip adds 20% of tombs Damage to casters MP
If Horn is equip adds .5 second stun effect to proc.

Selo's

If Lute is equip Out of combat HP and MP regen is increased 100
If Drum is equip increase out of combat run speeds by 30% and in combat run by 10%
If flute is equip group has invisiblity cast on them every 6 seconds.
If horn is equip the range in which mobs will agro you is lowered by 50%.

==========

Now I not saying make this without bards having to give something up. Give up a secondary or Primary slot. And maybe have a Modifier to the adds effects depending on the quality of the musical instrument.

If we bards are going to be given a roll, let is be one where our buffs and debuffs be the mainstay of our DPS.
Message Edited by Hazeroth on 12-15-2006 07:48 AM

Im sorry, I disagree. A Troubs hate reduction buff allows the DPS group to go all out and maximize their damage output. How does that not help the raid as a whole??

I really hope that instruments aren’t used to simply augment existing buff amounts. Not only is it thinking inside the very box we’re trying to enlarge, but it’s pretty unlikely given the emphasis they’ve put on diminishing returns. I’d really prefer some new, short buff or short duration abilities which have recast times that balance their respective power, and which require specific instruments to use. I haven’t really worked through whether the relative strengths of the buffs or abilities (read: numbers) should increase with any or all of character level, instrument tier, and instrument quality, or whether their durations should simply increase by a number of seconds. I’d be interested in all of your feedback. Two things before I offer up my embryonic ideas: I think instruments should be quest rewards or drops from raid mobs but not craftable. While a bard could acquire all of the instruments in the game, I think also there would need to be some limitation placed upon how many of said instruments a bard could carry at one time. Three maybe? Again, I welcome your feedback. Finally, in addition to recast timers and penalties for using bardic instruments, after playing an instrument, the dirge will need a minimum of two minutes to switch and (um for lore’s sake) tune their instruments. Reuse of an already equipped instrument would be subject only to the recast timers, but using a new instrument would take five minutes.

Elrin’s Hymn of Heroism
Requires: Lute
Power 400, 400 health
Duration: 30 seconds (base)
Recast: 10 minutes
Effect: Increases target ally’s attack speed, damage per second and in-combat movement by 200%, also increases target ally’s threat position by one. The dirge is stifled for the duration of the spell. The dirge’s attack and movement speed are reduced by half for the next minute.

Godstalk’s Aggravating Anthem
Requires: horn
Power 400, health 400
Duration: 1 minute
Recast: 15 minutes
Effect: Curses the target with a base 15% chance to fizzle on spells or combat arts. The dirge’s disruption, ordination, ministration and subjugation are reduced by 25 for the duration of the spell.

Lornick’s Leeching Limmerick
Requires: Drum
Power: 400 base, 19 per tick, health 400, 29 per tick
Duration: 1 minute
Recast: 10 minutes
Effect: Allows the dirge to duplicate a target’s buff and apply it to another target at 60% strength. As this takes a concentration slot, the dirge must have a free concentration slot before attempting this song.

Whysperr’s Curative Canteta
Requires: Flute
Power 500 base, 19 per tick, health 400, 19 per tick
Duration: 40 seconds
Recast: 15 minutes
Effect: All enemy auto attack damage converted to heals for duration. All members of the dirge’s group will sustain 4500 Divine damage on spell termination. Kills the dirge.

Presto!
Requires: ACCORDION!
Power: 600, special
Duration: variable
Recast: 40 minutes
Effect: Allows the dirge to memorize one enemy damage-inflicting ability and recast it at 75% strength. The dirge must have directly experienced and survived the ability. On spell termination, the dirge will be reduced to one hit point and rendered immune to healing for five seconds.

Let me know what you think,

Aeng, Trauma, Guk, Etc


Message Edited by zboim on 12-15-2006 11:27 AM

In addition to the obvious things like run speed and the removal of a conc slot on Hyrans (to mirror the coercer hate song) and the alterating of Garsins to something useful, maybe a short FD, or a long duration daze, jsut as a couple of ideas to wake it, well, useful

Also, just as a thought, maybe instruments couls work like the Ocarina from Ocarina of Time, in that somehow working to play the instrument could do something like HOs that actually are good, or something similar. If its fun, then it might add to making us feel more interactive and, well, bardish.

I would like to see solo stances added, that could take up lets say three conc slots, something like:

Stance: Death Bearer (Adept III)

Increases defense, parry and physical mitigation while reducing combat skills of the dirge and the opportunity to use other songs. This is the dirges primary defensive stance. Cannot use Screeching Elusion while using this song.

Target: Self
Concentration: 3
Casting: 1.0 seconds
Recovery: 0.5 seconds
Recast: 1.0 seconds
Duration: Until Canceled

Level: 69
Dirge

-Decreases Slashing, Crushing, Piercing, Ranged, Disruption, Subjugation, Ordination, Ministration of caster by 18
-Increases Defense and Parry of caster by 18
-Increases the effectiveness of casters worn armor by 15%
-Increases WIS of caster by 130
-When target is damaged in combat, this spell has a 20% chance to cast Death Bearer on target's attacker.
---Inflicts 143-239 disease damage on target

------------------

Stance: Mournful Boon (Adept III)

Increases the drige's offensive skills and the cost of decreased defenses and opportunity to use other songs. This is the dirges primary offensive stance. Cannot use Dissonant Boon while using this song.

Target: Self
Casting: 1.0 seconds
Recovery 0.5 seconds
Recast: 1.0 seconds
Duration: Until Cancelled

Level: 62
Dirge

-Decrease Defence of caster by 20.0
-Increases INT of caster by 200
-Increase AGI of caster by 60
-Increase Slashing, Crushing, Piercing, Ranged, Distruption by 45.0

-----------

Just ideas, but I think that by sacrificing the ability to use other songs it would be a fair tradeoff for increased soloability, which is an obvious issue. In addition if these were to be adopted, I make no claim for these to be properly tuned as is.

I just hope that with the bard revamp we area listened to, and that it makes all levels of bard play more enjoyable.
Message Edited by ZeroRavesOn on 12-15-2006 06:06 PM

Either you've never looked at it seriously, or you play with a tank who is hacking to increase his hate generation. Our deagro buff doesnt allow a group to go all out. If our warlock even looks at his nukes in the first 20 seconds of a named fight he pulls agro, even with a dirge in the MT group and a troub in the warlock's group. It helps, it does NOT allow balls-to-the-wall DPS. In essence your agro song basically does the same as the troubador's except your effects the whole raid instead of just one group. Yes the Troubador one DOES benefit the raid, but nowhere NEAR the extent that the dirge one does.
I just don't see why you should get a conc free buff that is in essence BETTER than the one troubador's get in raids and equal in groups.

As much as I would like to see more spell variations and completely new songs I doubt that will ever come to pass.
For every song we get, ever other class would have to get an ability. There are very very few exceptions if any for this policy.
Our best bet is to work within the system provided. That way we get more utility without giving bards many more songs then all the other classes.
But It would be nice to have the selection that EQ1 gave Bards.
Message Edited by Hazeroth on 12-16-2006 04:45 AM

I doubt it, too, (and also think it would be nice, though), but not for the reason you state. In the last two "combat change" updates, GU #29 & the one with KoS, -some- classes got new spells/CAs but most did not. Paladins I know got a new spell/CA in both (I have a Pally I rarely play and I have an alchemist... and the essence recipes for the latest ones don't exist). In the lastest one, some of the healer classes (fury and mystic??) also got new spells (and the sage recipes don't exist for those either).

So... they -could- give us more spells/CAs and not have to give some to other classes, but I really seriously doubt that's what they'd do.

Furys got Elddar's Grasp ( a root ), which has magically appeared in my Sages
Advanced recipe book #63. (not 62 where you would expect it). What, if anything Mystic's got I have no idea.

In terms of utility I disagree with Hazeroth. IF Dirges got some neat stuff and Troubadours didn't (or vice versa), then yes there might be that overused term "balance issues", but other classes? Nope, its bardly business only - the low numbers playing each class, speaks for itself

Maybe you need a new tank... cuz the second spell the wizzies in my guild cast is Ice Nova... and thats every fight.. with only a troub in there group. And we get a conc free slot one because its single target and yours is a group... and sure ours may be better in a raid situation, but not everyone raids.

Bingo. That is a big factor. It is a solo buff and the only time it is really used is in raids.
To Mildavyn: Whether or not it allows the DPS group to go all out in your experience is besides the point. You said that our buff is better because it benefits the raid as a whole whereas yours only benefits your group. I was saying more DPS w/o getting aggro benefits the raid. Arguing whose benefits it more is semantics and not a valid argument. With me in the MT group, a paladin MTing with amends on one of the higher DPSers in the MT group and a troub in the caster DPS group reducing hate, our necros, wizzys and warlocks can start out with a vengence as soon as the MT says burn it down. Thats not something we can do without that troub in the DPS group. We know, we've tried.

Whyever not? Seems to me that his (her?) only point is that the dirge buff allows every dps character in the raid to do more without getting unwelcome attention in the form of a sucking chest wound, while the troub buff allows only the characters in that group to do so. That makes the dirge buff possibly a bit better in raids, depending on the exact mechanics of aggro and mob attention. Not sure exactly how it relates to the topic, but it's a legitimate point. Doesn't make the troub buff useless, just makes the dirge one incrementally better.
Incrementally is my EG2 word of the week. Everything in EQ2 is incremental -- fabled gear is incrementally better than legendary, but one piece doesn't change the world. And so on.
Whysprr
Message Edited by Whysprr on 12-17-2006 08:13 PM

Personally i want more int on our high end gear, concentration taken off our death bearer line (even if we have to lose the DS i would rather have the int agi bonus on a raid than a DS solo) more bard only drops, rangers and assasins get plenty of them only drops in the jewelry area aka ring of relkenitar ( heck knows if thats spelt right), Our title as the Lords of Speed better be brought back faster than a ugly geared mystic blazing past me with her entire group thanks to SoW. and last but by no means least the instruments,
i think the best we can hope for is charm slot items, a lute a harp and a drum, you can buy em craft em and they drop from instances and raid zones like the altars, each one would have some stats e.g drums would be str based, lutes agi and lutes int, they would have clickies on them for 1 shot bonuses kinda like the harp made outta dragons ribs you could get in icewind dale that could shoot flames, or you could get a heal one or one that has a dot on it or something, i cant see them giving us any totally new spells or giving us instruments instead of weapons but a charm slot item is quite feasable

It doesnt change the fact that the Troubs skill does in fact benefit the raid, which was all I was responding to in the first place. Which is a greater benefit, making it easier for the MT to hold hate or killing the mob faster? Thats all a matter of definition and opinion and at that point you are spliting hairs, which is one I dont think it is a valid argument regarding whether or not the concentration slot needs to be removed from Hyrans. So because in some peoples view, our buff is an iota more beneficial to a raid (and only then) it shouldnt have its conc requirement removed despite the fact that unlike the troub buff ours is single target?
Personally while I wouldnt mind them removing the conc slot (I could then run Death Bearer while raiding) I'll continue on regardless. My only point was that the troub buff isnt as **** as it was being made out to be vs our buff.
I object..only one person in the raid wants hate increase, everyone wants DPS increase..thats not fair... Make the troubs buff single target

I would like to see something that is simple yet Bard unique.
Here is an Example
Charm of Maligning Sustain (Charm Slot: No stats)
When Equiped:
Adds Additional 10% to DPS Modification of Riana's Maligning Sustain (10% meaning 40% @ M1 not 33%)
Removes Concentration Requirement for Riana's Maligning Sustain
Kick this out there for every bard spells and I would be a happy.

Message Edited by Novatar on 12-18-2006 07:28 AM

To not suck.

I haven't read this thread, but I just want to say that I can't stand it when they change the game around. I mean if they are going to revamp, whats to say they aren't going to just nerf the crap out of our de/buffs, boost our runspeed/dps and turn us into another cookie cutter dps class?

If they are going to add adnimations and instruments that don't effect gameplay, i'm all over that, but i'm quite content with being a Dirge at this point and time.

I know this discussion has been going on forever, and I said something like this in the other thread, but since someone had to start another threadâ„¢, I thought I would just reitterate what I said earlier.

All said though I wouldn't mind running faster than those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] mounts! Why can't we we get a song like "Forced Nature Walk" which makes everyones mounts flee in terror for like an hour? /grin /scheme

One more thing to add to the revamp wish list...

Currently we have the Daze ability ... it would be more helpful if we can either get a Stiffle ability or switch out Daze for Stiffle ability... reason why?

From a Dirge perspective, we are melee class with CoB and other useful melee ability... however we can't use it against any of the melee classes out there... Yes I can't stop others from autoattack me.. but however, I can't go into melee combat (which reduce dirge's ability/dps more than half because true dps buffs are for melee fights, such as CoB)... Any time I attemp to cast CoB (which 90% sucessful while keep away)... but then when I go into melee range to take advantage of CoB buff, I get stun for a good 6 sec (which by that time I would be dead or close to dead) and CoB would expire as well.

I don't think this is alot to ask, since it would help us complements our melee ability and actually allow us to use it. Plus other classes have permanent attack speeds and yet they are better equiped with longer stun so and keep us stiffles to render us helpless while executing their One-Shot ability or combinations of abilities that seems to hit all at same time within 3 secs (like brig).

Note... it is also helpful in PVE as well.


pleading SOE to help Bards/Dirge ... We have been neglected so much because not many of us... (note: also could be root cause why people don't play bards due to surviabilities).

oh yeah... LET US CAST ON THE RUN! sick of feeling like a mage here guys =P

our root is about the only thing I dont mind having to be still to cast

Cast on the run is a biggie for me. Primarily solo with my dirge and this would be very handy.
Given the strong anti-kiting attitude I have always found it odd that our DD spells can be applied on the run but not most of our debuffs.
Instruments: I like the idea of a trade off and having to make choices. Do i want to equip a bow or an instrument?
It would make sense to me to have instruments have stats +INT and +AGI, perhaps add a percentage to the effectiveness of our songs.
But at the very least the instrument could add one or two conc slots when equipped. (Number of conc slots added dependant on the quality of the instrument.)
So if i go solo I would tend to equip my bow for the pull/root. But when grouped, whip out my lute and have 7 conc slots and bonuses to my songs.
Cheers.

1. Bards need to be fastest in the game without equipment/horse. Period
2. Remove the dmg from death bearer, we never asked for it, but remove conc slot
3. Give us 1 or 2 more cons slots. Why does a bruiser have 5 and we have 5, it doesnt make sense since we are huge buffers and they are not. Maybe they give us one extra conc slot and dont change death bearer at all. At least that gives us more options.
4. No single offensive or defensive stance, we have group stances for that (parry buff and dps song)
5. Since Hyrans can only be casted on one person now, pls remove conc slot
6. Give us instruments that add to our songs. Give us very strong instruments to be used in prime or offhand, so we can boost ours songs and in return give up our own dps. Give us moderate instruments to be used in in ranged/charm slots.
7. Pls do somehting about our bad scaling % (de) buffs like daros and dps song. As stated the lvl 44 master 2 is way better than adept 3 58 and overall its still better than master 1 58. And no, dont see them as crowd control spells so they wont stick at higher lvl mobs
8. All in all I am quite happy with my Dirge, always have been. The above should be possible to implement somehow without getting things all unbalanced. BTW, Our EoF AP's are amongst the best, just fyi
Message Edited by Stabnes on 12-19-2006 08:52 AM