So what do we want from our might be, possibly, Soon(tm) revamp?

Prediction (not what I want): To make the self-buff more compelling and desirable, without removing the concentration requirement, it will have a runspeed + added. That way they can kill 2 birds with one stone without giving us anything. They can point to the self-buff and tell us we should be using that if we want more speed and they can tell us how using the self-buff will improve our power pool, dps, etc. But, it will, of course, completely ignore the fact that in most groups and raids and even soloing, bards don't use the self-buff because they have to give up something else that's more needed.

Whysprr you've got to be kidding me. You're defending someone who doesn't even play our class who's coming here knocking down ideas. The guy is arguing about combat arts he doesn't even have, just to argue it.
Yeah that's good insight. NOT.

Kurizo: Not playing a class doesn't mean no good insight. In fact, someone posting from another class' perspective can often give US perspective on the game as a whole, not just our own limited world. You seem to delight in discussion stifling though. =(

The Summoned: Making our self buff have to be recast would not add "tactical" to it... it would add tedium and maintenance to it. The only thing that would add "tactical" to it would be to make the recast time longer than the duration (so that we have to pick when the effect is going to be of most use), or to make the effect useful only against certain scenarios, or to give it a stance-like trade-off. Those kinds of changes make it "tactical". Merely adding a maintenance to it does not.

In any event, I wouldn't want to see any of those kinds of changes made to it. =(

You see but you miss the point entirely. The guy says, "Scream of Death doesn't need to be adjusted." How does he know how strict the requirement is? He doesn't, it's irrelevant. He's coming here to play devils advocate with no sound understanding of the existing situation. Other than that he is a troubador and not a dirge and resents what dirges bring to the table. This is what he has admitted. Merely pointing it out should not make me the target amongst my fellow dirges, that is if you play a dirge.

Maybe... just MAYBE my troubador was a dirge for a couple levels? Maybe I betrayed to change classes around level 50, played my new dirge to level 58 and decided i didnt like it? Maybe i DO know that Scream of death is a melee attack that requires position AND stealth. Maybe i do know that it also adds a DoT to the mob.

Maybe you arent as smart as you think you are.
So because im offering an opinion that isnt the same as yours, i resent what dirges bring to the table? Also, read my post again. I was complaining about the fabled ARMOR, not the dirges who get to use it. However, thats not the topic of this discussion, so I'll drop it.

Kurizokun wrote:
Scream of Death's restriction is too restrictive. It needs to be adjusted just like Garsin's was, were you playing a dirge back then? Oh wait you don't play a dirge. (It's a melee damage attack. Unless you're tanking, you should already be behind the mob. I dont see a problem with this staying as is. I don't care if they change it, i just dont see why you want it changed.) Again, it is too restrictive, it needs to be adjusted just like garsins. Do you know the difference between the two? Doesn't seem to me like you do. (Garsin's is a stealthed melee attack with a WIS debuff, no position required. SoD is a stealthed positional melee attack with a DoT.)
I have no idea how you gathered my power tapping the mob had anything to do with being a troubador. (Gee, maybe because its a skill that a Troubador gets? Ya think?) No, I don't play a troub, I play a dirge. It has NOTHING to do with troubadors. I hope you can understand how clearly I am stating this to you. A power tap from the mob would be much more beneficial than a heal. Healing should be a troubador ability in my opinion. (Already got a healing song. Thanks but i dont want your life-taps.) Ours isn't a lifetap it's a life transfer. (Wail of the Dead: direct disease damage with a small heal. AKA LIFETAP. I'm not talking about Oration)
Not once did I state anywhere encounters or single target. (Not entirely sure what this part is about...)
No where did I say I want to be god, you only read that in my post because you have an inferiority complex. YOUR OPINION belongs in another board, NOT here. You are NOT a dirge. You're not helping the situation, your devil's advocate is forcing your tainted Troubador beliefs onto a dirge idea thread. If you don't like it, go make a thread that says: "10 things I hate about dirges" then go cry more noob.
Take your bad mood and go somewhere else flower boy. Obvious you're jealous what the dirges get and you want to prevent them from getting anything else, what other reason would you have to come here and talk smack on a request thread by a non dev? (Read my post again, there's no smack talk there.) There's a comment with you acting like a pouty little girl about set armor. I find the fact that you get INT in yours awesome compared to a COB timer decrease. Atleast the troubador set gear does something other than one decent effect.

Um... 84 points of INT spread over 7 peices of armor(which by the way you get on YOUR armor as well)... versus the recast timer on one of your major skills being cut in half... its a tough call. NOT. Also, its the first bonus you get, the first bonus troubs get is +60 (sixty) damage to our stealth attack... an attack that gets used once, occasionally twice in a fight. I DO NOT want your armor nerfed, i jsut want someone to get a clue and start giving the Troubs some nice toys as well.
Also, i was talking about your lifetaps, not your life transfer. I dont want either of them. But I still dont see why you should get a mana-tap. If you want extra mana, run Bria's and get 58 a tick! (which by the way is MORE than the troubador power-tap gives us.

Just to end: not everyone only plays one class. Not everyone only has knowledge about one class. Some people LIKE to know things about other classes, and some people play on PvP servers and NEED to know as much as possible. Come play on Venekor and i'll show you WHY i dont want to be a dirge.

Let's look at the Dirge set armor (ignoring the set bonuses):
Hat -> Nightchord Cap is better
Gloves -> Reinforced Bloodsoaked Gloves, Nightchord Gloves, Gloves of Virtuoso are better
Feet -> Unknown?
Forearms -> Sonorant Bracers, Bracers of the Codex are better
Shoulders -> Hardshell Shoulderpads are about equal if not better
Chest -> Unknown?
Legs -> Unknown?
Ok, so far our guild has been unlucky and hasn't gotten any of these to drop, but I don't really care. I wouldn't even use any of them unless I had all 3 pieces except the shoulders because I don't have the shoulders out of crab. The bonus to Cacophony is nice, but we have to basically downgrade our gear to get it. Replacing your gear with those 4 pieces would be make your toon worse than what it probably is now (ignoring the set bonus). I know it would for me.
-Kalll, 70 Dirge of Impulse on Mistmoore

Message Edited by Danterus on 01-06-2007 09:18 PM

Evidently not. Dismissing the majority of the population (most of us solo at least a bit) as 'some soloer's' (sic), and dismissing two of our primary, essential solo tools as 'crap' completely undercuts any credibility you might've had in that regard. And you know, I can't claim to be an expert on 'high end content', but for raids with nagging AOEs, I've used those lifetaps to keep on my feet, take a bit of the load off the healers, and allow me to use Oration of Sacrifice. Have to choose the situation 'cause they're power-intensive, but that's called tactics.
More fundamentally, if someone who's not primarily a dirge makes a point you disagree with, you can discuss the point without invoking the ridiculous 'you're not a dirge therefore you don't know dirges' absurdity. Making the actual substantive point that getting behind is impossible on high-end KoS content and that's why SoD needs to be changed up-front and sidestepping the troub-dirge foolishness would've saved everyone reading about five screens of glaringly-but-also-confusingly formatted text, and probably some irreplaceable brain cells. And we could've gone on to dicuss the tradeoffs associated with that change -- and I bet anyone playing a pred or rogue would have insights we could learn from, come to that.
Mildavyn's initial point was expressed in an annoyingly inflammatory way, but there was actually a logical issue there -- what you were asking for was quite troubie-like, and blurred the class boundaries a touch. Maybe that's OK, maybe not, but there's something to discuss. Whereas the argument from authority -- 'I'm a high-end raiding dirge therefore nobody else has anything meaningful to say' eliminates any learning opportunity, and makes it look like you don't have anything to say to the actual points. You don't want that, I hope.
As does the whole dirge-envy-troubie-envy crosstalk routine. But it would make a good song.
Oh, dear.
Whysp
Message Edited by Whysprr on 01-07-2007 04:41 AM
Message Edited by Whysprr on 01-07-2007 04:45 AM

I didn't dismiss anyone. Any dirge is more than welcome to bring it up. I personally don't use it because I don't have a need. Which is why I said I didn't mention it. I dunno I guess if you're level 70 killing vox perhaps that lifetap will help you, but aint no end content in this game that our lifetaps will help you through.
Oration of sacrifice is a fun tool while grouping or someone slips up on trash mobs. Maybe that's what it was intended for. I personally feel that a power tap from the mob would be more beneficial. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe nobody thinks like I do. That's why we have opinions. Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. If you have a recommendation make it. But that's not what this is all about is it? You're attacking me because I am going round and round with that troubador who plays on a pvp server. A pvp server troubador is ragging on a pve dirge recommendation.... no wonder there are different opinions lol.
Not once did I ever state that fundamentally I would not discuss dirge abilities with a non-dirge. I will not stand for a non-dirge, coming here blasting my recommendations ie adjusting combat arts that are too strict on the directly behind requirement. Furthermore, these are the dirge forums not the bard forums. If the guy has recommendations he can make them, coming here being combative with everyone in this post is just going to get him flamed.
I said high end EOF. Not KOS. Big difference. You know what? Until you have repeated problems with using scream of death (which I'm gonna step out on a limb here and say you don't) you have no idea what I'm talking about. Getting insight from another backstabber is absurd. We are not backstabbers, we have attacks that require you to be behind mobs but ALL of them have been adjusted minus one. If you can't see that it's not worth talking to you about anymore.
I am a high end raiding dirge and the things I mentioned are important to me. That is all I have stated, and that's all I continue to state. I haven't knocked any of the other requests... some of which are absolutely the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. If I was who you accuse me of being, then certainly I would be in here ragging on them wouldn't I?
You perpetuate all of this by getting in the middle, I hope you realize that.

I've seen the troubador BP and I hate to tell you this but our troubador was more than pleased. Perhaps it's a big difference from pvp and pve. In my opinion PvP is what has screwed up itemization in this game, and a whole mess of other things.

Edit: And let me also say that I think set gear needs to be looked at across the board. But that really has ZERO to do with a dirge revamp doesn't it? Yes that's right, it doesn't.
Message Edited by Kurizokun on 01-07-2007 05:31 AM

You're right in that at least. I should've known better.
Whysp

Well, color me embarrassed...

My 2cp.

High end horses now provide a number of buffs in addition to runspeed. Other classes with their AA choices are now faster than we are. Make bards the fastest thing on land, sea or air. It's just a matter of pride.

I want to be able to see invisible or see stealth like the other scout classes. I would prefer that troubs see invisible and dirges see stealth. I then would like those abilities put on one of our lesser used group buffs.

I soo want to say make everything castable on the run but I look at Sapping Shot and realize how evil that would be. So instead I'd like to ask that our 2nd lifetap be made castable on the run at the minimum.

I want fear to erase aggro and not bring back a train. That add should be running away and telling his friends "Don't go back there. You should hear what the emo one says they'll do to us if we go back. Please for the love of Cazic DON'T MAKE ME GO BACK!"

Speaking of the love of Cazic. For crying out loud, please give us some real fun spells. My friends get a fun spell and start whining but then I tell them what my spells do and they feel better. Have a gong sound and make the party /grieve while the dirge /dance. Give me a dark song to play and shroud me in ghosts. Give me an actually scary illusion instead of the over developed Teir'Dal. But no more with 'I fed the group the burrito of death.'

And yes, I want instruments and not some silly lute. I want a wardrum, or bagpipes, or a horn. Unless the lute has a pickup and I can play Dethklok on it just give that one to the troubs.

Fixes to existing abilities:-
1. All spells except bow attacks to be castable whilst moving (i.e. Lifetaps, Mit Debuff and Banshee line).
2. To run faster than anyone else (how did that slip by people when testing the EoF AAs?).
3. Stealth bug and Zander's to be fixed. I mean these have been reported issues for over a year now.
4. Tomb's and Dissonant line to do... well something meaningful (Dissonant Boon at master is only fractionally better than the Swindler's Luck HO).
5. Remove the concentration slot on our self-buff.
6. Sapping shot and our AA bow attack to do more damage than autoattack.
7. Fun spells to do something... fun.
8. Overhaul of Allegro, Coin Toss, Control Life and Control Line AAs.
9. Ability to rez and use Oration of Sacrifice outside of group/ raids. Why can't we anyway when priests can?
New stuff to make Dirge's useful outside of raids and have some interesting play:-
1. Ability to summon a temporary pet of a banshee or dead spirit to either, fight, buff or well anything would be cool.
2. More situational and/ or short duration buffs/ debuffs.
3. More ways to generate hate (albeit that this one is a wish-list item of mine and maybe not within the class concept)
Most importantly:-
1. Something to be formally announced (even if not implemented) before VG is released at the end of the month.
2. For the class to be properly looked at rather than just tweaked.

I think that the lifetaps and bow attacks will never be changed because of the kite nerf. I personally dislike the rez, heal portion of our class but that's just me. Asking to more like priests though - gah! Heheh yeah, they sure are quiet aren't they? How much do you wanna bet they're over there coding the crud out of vanguard?

10 bucks?

It was noted and mentioned several times in beta.

Also making our stealth (and the aa group stealth) allow the use of in-combat speed buffs would actually make it the faster stealth it's supposed to be. Not by much but still something.

As a Dirge I don't want to be seen surrounded in particle effects. I want to be heard and felt.

Bagpipes.

When I cast CoB, I want my raid force to hear some distinct sounds of motivation rather than a macro.

Give me a large bassdrum I can cast repeatedly to establish a cadance to help us time a joust.

Basically I would like to see mezzes. Part of what I loved about playing a bard in EQ was crowd control. And I miss that a lot here in EQ2. Other than that I would like our buffs and debuffs to be more inline with other classes that we share those buffs with. I would like more buff and some dots also. I would love to be able to boost all the resists and dot some things to death while kiting. I would also like our runspeed to be inline with the horses that is part of what makes us bards also. so in a nutshell

someone said "I want to be able to see invisible or see stealth like the other scout classes. I would prefer that troubs see invisible and dirges see stealth. I then would like those abilities put on one of our lesser used group buffs." we are singers why can't we use echolocation? lool

more buffs and/or debuffs. I am ok with troubies running buffs and us hitting debuffs
Dots nuf said
CC a bard in EQ was part warrior part chanter... now I don't want plate.... but some charming and mezzing would be nice
and run speed more than 34% add a lev in there and I would be thrilled. I think it was selo's accelerando in eq1
Message Edited by blavek on 01-17-2007 11:06 PM