Rangers vs Assassins

Great post!
this is just my two cents.
I believ esince the assassin has to be in meele to be abel to do his DPS he is more succeptible to AOE damage. In most the cases the ranger DPS overcome the ranger du to the fact that the assassin has to break meele when a nasty AOE is forth coming.
Maybe thats why the timers are a little bit shorter fro the assassin.
Even tha tin numbers teh assassin may look like he is the winner.
I think that in reality the Assassin cant ditch out the DPS due to the fact they cant be in meel 100% of the time. Thats where the range advantage kicks in.

Good luck

There is no way

Just to help your cause a little more... Bal, are you using the caustic / hemotoxin during these fights? Typically, both myself and sum are not... we are using the mental breach instead (so those numbers would actually be quite a bit higher).
That being said, I am not afraid of an assassin nerf. As one poster said above, not all assassins are good. All it takes is one screw up and our dps is down the tubes for that encounter. AE knocks you out of stealth a couple times... you lose a couple hundred points. I think assassins as they stand are one of the most balanced (and fun to play) classes out there. It'd be a shame to modify them in anyway at this point.
Anyway, this is about rangers... I sincerely hope you guys get a much needed fix. I would imagine a more substantial increase in your CA damage is in order. I hope you get it.
* Note: if you haven't caught on, I am one of the assassins in balerius' guild.
bobstir
chaotic legion.kithicor

Thanks Bobstir. And yes, my 700-950 dps on epics is with me using caustic or hemotoxin poisons. And I know you and Sum, with your higher mana costs, achieve your 1000-1300 dps in the same fights without using damage poisons.

The two assassins in my guild (Bobstir being one of them) are exceptionally good players. And I think I play my ranger well. These are the numbers we see fight after fight, raid after raid. These numbers give an indication of the magnitude of the changes that must be made for rangers to be restored to an equivalent level of dps that assassins currently have.

Clearly the devs will have to test dps for themselves as they make the obviously needed corrections to ranger dps. I just hope the method of testing that they use will employ rangers and assassins who actually know what they are doing, as opposed to whatever testing methodology they used before LU21.

I'm making this post to help settle some of the debates back and forth about both pre- and post- LU21 Assassin VS Ranger DPS.

First and foremost, I am making a disclaimer:
ANY AND ALL DATA GATHERED ON DPS AT ANY TIME, AS IT RELATES TO ASSASSINS VS RANGERS IN DPS, NEEDS TO BE DONE ON 100% EQUAL GROUNDS!!
I love seeing posts like the early ones in this thread, where one ranger says Assassins always out-DPS'd him pre-LU21 and continue to post-LU21. I can say this much... in Tier6, I had better overall equipment than our Ranger, I had my Offensive stance Mastered (he did not), and various other factors that said I SHOULD be out-DPS'ing him... but I wasn't. He was consistently 200-300 points above me, and on particularly AE-heavy battles could go as high as 600 points above me. We were nearly always in the same group and thus had the same buffs applied to us in raids.
With that said, the basic theory is this: Assassins and Rangers with equivocal gear, spells, buffs, and level of skill should be doing equivocal damage within a 5% standard margin of error.

I find many many things that happen in these comparisons that skew the results one way or another. The most common factor is something as stupid as the Ranger not using Tier-appropriate arrows, the Assassin not using a Rare-Crafted Poison, one character having more/less Masters than the other, or (in the WORST of scenarios) the two characters are in different raid groups and thus benefitting from completely different buffs.
Also, strictly speaking, the comparison of Ranged cast timers VS Melee cast timers is almost entirely moot. Post-LU21, I have seen (as an Assassin, using the T7 Wurm Destroyer Bow and Indium arrows) bow shots for as high as 1.7k damage on a 4.5s delay. Assuming the average shot is 1500, that's 333.33 DPS. On my standard dual-wield weapons, my auto-attack hits for an average of 260 per swing, 2 swings per round, 1.6s and 1.5s delay on weapons (so I'll average to 1.55s). 4.5 / 1.55 = 2.90; this determines the equivelent "hits per round". Now, given that in 1.55 seconds I hit 2 times for 260, do the math: 260 x 2 x 2.9 = 520 x 2.9 = roughly 1500 damage in the same timeframe for 333.33 DPS.
Then you adjust for abilities. The above data was taken off of ME, an Assassin. Since both data sets were taken with the exact same equipment and buffs there is no bias in one direction or the other. Now comes the tricky part of adjusting for the natural difference in abilities between Rangers and Assassins... for example, an Assassin's T7 ADP3 DPS buffer gives 57% DPS, whereas a Ranger's Master Haste buffer gives only 43% Haste. This is where back-adjustment of math becomes a very handy thing.
My 1700 bow shot was made with that very same 57% DPS buffer on; if 1500 was the average shot with 157% of the bow's damage you can re-adjust down to 100% (1.00 multiplier) of the bow's damage in conjunction with the Indium arrows and see that a Ranger would be hitting for 955.41 per shot average. Then, apply the Haste buffer; keeping in mind that 100% haste means that a weapon has half the delay (delay reduced 50%), a 43% haste mod means the delay has been reduced roughly 21.5%, bringing the delay of the bow down from 4.5s to 3.53s. That means, with the averages adjusted to (955.41 dmg / 3.53s) x 1.275 (this multiplier brings us up to the 4.5s timeframe the Assassin is stuck with for his combat round)... you have 345.1 DPS.
Yes, 345.1 DPS opposed to the Assassin's 333.33 DPS in this scenario, granted that the Assassin's DPS buff is ADP3 and the Ranger's Haste buff is MST1. When you adjust for a 5% standard margin of error in either scenario, they are still statistically the same DPS.

What's my point in all this math? That looking at raw data for damage and delay means pretty much nothing. In the case of Sniper Shot VS Assassinate, in either scenario, you have 6k damage ON IMPACT (ADP3). The arguement that Sniper Shot does less "damage per second" based on the cast timer is moot given the simple fact that both are impact damage. If you want to divide the damage by Sniper Shot by its cast timer to get 1.2k DPS from the ability, then you have to examine the fact that 5s after Assassinate has been used, the damage from it results in 1.2k DPS. Rangers simply pay the time-penalty up front. Once you consider the AA from KoS that reduces the casting time on this (and all) abilities by 35% you could, theoretically, get an opposite swing of perceived unbalance: Since nearly all Assassin cast-timers are .5s or less, the ability clearly gives Rangers far more benefit than Assassins, and could (conceivably) swing Rangers to a more favorable DPS position (assuming they'd even take the ability... which would be stupid. But I digress..). In the case of Sniper Shot, reducing the cast timer from 5s to 3.25s means the difference of Sniper Shot making a Ranger LOSE up to 2 bow shots (on a shortbow, after their Haste ability)... to NOT LOSING A SHOT AT ALL. By comparison, an Assassin needs to be both In-Stealth AND near an enemy (thus in range of AoE's... which BREAK Stealth) to perform Assassinate. Now tell me who's at a disadvantage?

Now, the main thing I'd like to get across is this: As the game currently stands, Rangers can do EXACTLY the same DPS as Assassins, given equivocal gear, spells, and buffs. I have seen it done, I have seen it parsed, and as I was the Assassin in question I can say that both of us were going full-out and working as hard as we could to try to outdo the other. While competing with a Ranger friend of mine, I was able to achieve parses as high as 1380 in a single group, and the Ranger went as high as 1365. This is a 1.09% difference, which falls well within the 5% standard error of ANY statistical test.
Rangers DO have a disadvantage overall, and this needs to be carefully examined. Rangers use arrows as their primary mode of damage... This means RANGER DPS COSTS MONEY. If Rangers have anything to complain about, you should be pushing for a special form of Ranger-Only Quiver that produces an unlimited quantity of arrows, but takes Repair Damage as any other item in the game. Currently, a stack of Tier 6 Indium Arrows costs roughly 5.5g, and I know that the average Ranger goes through a quiver (20 stacks) of these per night easily. That's a plat per night. Wouldn't it be much nicer and much more fair to purchase a Ranger's Quiver of Hunting / Blunted / Honed (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing) Arrows, and pay 18g per-death Repair cost? (For a T7 Ranger's Quiver). That'd make a full 20-Slot Quiver of Arrows roughly equivelent, price-wise, to 10 Deaths with a Ranger's Quiver. Rangers would then have the freedom to choose which would be more appropriate for their situation; if you tend to die a lot in groups, you could use normal arrows to keep costs down. For raids, you could use your Ranger's Quiver and if it breaks, be able to switch to another Ranger's Quiver or use normal arrows.

-Hadanelith Raswrolski, 70 Assassin of Legacy, Kithicor

Lol im sorry but the next ranger that says...ohh our dps sucks VS assassin in raids is a FREAKING liar or....an ebayed ranger...we parse constantly in raids and against AE mobs (which now are the NORM and not the exeption) they do really well vs us..... Not that our guild assassins are slouches... (well maybe we tend to take more dirtnaps cause of ae jousting hehehe) I firmly beleive you are now where u are suposed to be... To the OP there is a solution to the "arrows costing money (which btw assassins also in raids consume arrows like no tomorrow..and we cant summon any)" ...that is having Endless Qwiver as the final aa for ranged line.... WTB a 20 second delay bow

I don't think they are liars and I know they are not ebayed. Your belief that we are where we are supposed to be is nothing more than your opinion. And, your opinion differs from almost everyone else's here. Also, if you've been keeping up with Ranger's issues, you'd know that Endless Quiver is not an option and never will be. Thank you for your concern though. It's always nice to hear that the other classes are looking out for us.
Message Edited by Gareorn on 04-01-200602:32 PM

And I have seen it parsed as well. Repeatedly. And btw, I'm not talking about group fights against heroics as you apparently are. I'm talking about epic mobs. I'm also talking about consistent dps...not what assassins can burst for on one fight with assassinate or rangers can burst for on one fight with sniper shot. On a consistent basis, assassins will do 1000-1350 dps and rangers 750-950 dps. And that's with similiar buffs/gear/AAs etc. Your experiences with your ranger friend in a group encounter and how high a dps each of you achieved one time is quite frankly irrelavent.

You don't even know what the AA lines are and you expect us to take your post seriously? Not to mention your insults about rangers who express their concerns about sub-par dps being either liars or ebayed.
Well I've got an idea that maybe you should consider: If your dps isn't significantly exceeding that of the ranger(s) of your guild, perhaps you are the one who is slacking or doesn't know how to play his class. See, it's real easy to make any assertion you want about someone's competence with no facts to back it up.
So I'll put it to you straight: The two assassins in my guild consistently do 1000-1350 dps on epic mobs. Do you? Do the rangers in your guild do 1000-1350 dps consistently? By consistently, I mean on fight after fight in places like Ascent or ToS and without you using assassinate or the rangers using rain of arrows or sniper shot. Post numbers, not allegations and insults. And while your at it, have your guildmate ranger come here and back up your statements. Until then, please stay in lurk mode.

No you dont get my point...on AE mobs where the dps really counts our dmg goes down while you guys stays right bout the same level (exept when positioning makes it difficult...hapens to both classes)..... in no way i see it justified for you guys to do same dps against all mobs...jousting mobs (which have increased in number dramatically) you guys still suprass us ...against trash mobs we do a lot more dmg!! horay for lots of dps against trash NO against trash mobs i am #2 only cause another assassin is #1 (havent had the conj raid as of late ) , now give the mob an AE and our dmg drops, either by Ae Knockback/stun/death or cause we run out to avoid it (much better to dodge ae to save your guild healers/rezers) BTW balerius i do know the aa line (dur!) im just implying that instead of the faster casting aa you need endless quiver as your final 8 point aa... just look at it this way....lots of dps vs all mob, or super high vs trash and medium when it counts??

Assassins get ranged abilities the only diffrence is, assassin ranged abilities dont provide the out put they need to. So they get classified as "useless" abilities. Assassins can run out of ranged CA's in 5.5 seconds. That means you can run out, do 5.5 seconds worth of ranged damage and run in..

I am currently working on getting DPS values for all assassin and ranger abilities - I am still writing it up so hopefully I will get it in soon (dont have alot of time on my hands).

But currently the average DPS for assassin ranged abilities is 416.5 to 676.25 - hardly t1 dps with the ranged abilities assassins get. This is included with your proc damage as well, and the total time you can maintain a ranged stance is 5.5 seconds. Its not a matter of assassins do less damage when they joust - its a matter of assassins cant do enough damage ranged.

(the numbers are part of the project im working on - I dont want to make the same mistake twice and submit an incomplete post)

Message Edited by LoreLady on 04-03-200608:16 AM

This thread is going downhill in a hurry - kinda disappointing to see it degenerating into rangers vs assassins...but when that's the title of the post, I guess we shouldn't really be surprised?

Yea its gone into an opinionated thing. I hope that it will change once I put out my findings, on the subject to make my case on both ends. Right now I have been working hard to just try and get this finished and on here for accurate findings, so untill that time bear with me.

Ebayed rangers - thats a good theory ... Thanks Skrattt ...
I could never figure out why there was so many sucky rangers until now :smileyhappy:

We wizards will be forever gratful for the productive input from rangers in the threads documenting wizard DPS deficiencies.
Thanks to the contributions of rangers it took only 20 LUs to get fixed and finally become a viable raid DPS class.

Dude, in another post you said your guild ranger was out-dpsing you yet he only had around 890 dps (actually, pretty good for a ranger on a t7 epic encounter). With Fusion, your AAs, and a properly constructed group, if you as a wizard aren't putting out more than 890 dps...then you might want to glance in a mirror before you throw around comments about who is sucking.

If you had bothered to actually read that thread, you would have noticed we had no aggro management and no power regen except for our own concussion in the caster DPS group. Try doing consistently over 900 DPS with a sorcerer without that and you will see what the problem is .... Hint --- we don't have any 40% aggro reducer like you guys have.
Here is what I wrote in case people don't want to look it up:
On yesterdays raid our ranger was the overall top DPS (summing the damage over all mobs that is), ahead of assassins and sorcerers. He averaged 830 DPS (best assassin was 800) whereas my wizard averaged around 600 DPS. The ranger was top DPS on 8 out of 22 encounters. Do I whine because I got outDPSed by a ranger ? No - I know I and the other sorcerers were low because we had no trouba or chanter in our group and the rangers and assassin had a dirge in theirs.
Message Edited by masseman on 04-03-200604:20 PM

"If you had bothered to actually read that thread, you would have noticed we had no aggro management and no power regen except for our own concussion in the caster DPS group. Try doing consistently over 900 DPS with a sorcerer without that and you will see what the problem is .... Hint --- we don't have any 40% aggro reducer like you guys have"
- then isent that what you should be complaining about with your own class? And doesnt that flaw your arguement if you cannot maximize your DPS.

Also, assassins often complain about "jousting" - read my earlier post on what assassins do ranged. Its something like 400-600 DPS average ranged (without auto attack put in there). Isent that what you should be backing up rather than saying rangers are fine for damage when an assassin cant do t1 dps ranged?

Also, shouldent you be on the warlock fourms about AE's - this is an opinionated statement but I believe that sorc's should be the top AE damage and preds top single target. Shouldent you be looking at your own counterpart then trying to compare an apple to an orange?
Message Edited by LoreLady on 04-04-200606:03 AM

Just to help your cause a little more... Bal, are you using the caustic / hemotoxin during these fights? Typically, both myself and sum are not... we are using the mental breach instead (so those numbers would actually be quite a bit higher).
That being said, I am not afraid of an assassin nerf. As one poster said above, not all assassins are good. All it takes is one screw up and our dps is down the tubes for that encounter. AE knocks you out of stealth a couple times... you lose a couple hundred points. I think assassins as they stand are one of the most balanced (and fun to play) classes out there. It'd be a shame to modify them in anyway at this point.
Anyway, this is about rangers... I sincerely hope you guys get a much needed fix. I would imagine a more substantial increase in your CA damage is in order. I hope you get it.
* Note: if you haven't caught on, I am one of the assassins in balerius' guild.
bobstir
chaotic legion.kithicor
Not to burst your bubble or anything, but Mental Breach does damage to the power pool... It still registers as damage... so saying that your damage would be higher if you used damage poisons that effect the health pool is false... Granted it might be a little bit higher because the poisons that effect the health pool do generally do more damage, but it is not going to be a substantial amount....
The biggest difference is that when the Mental Breach procs, not only does it do damage to the mobs power pool, but it also gives you power in return, allowing you to do more CAs without running out of power...

Gwern - 70 Assassin / Nilla - 70 Alchemist