To take an AA line because its good for solo / small group play is everyones right. To argue that it is in some way a boon to your raid despite it reducing you as a scouts DPS by a very clear margin , ahem thats laughable Really the thought that a few hundred mitigation and a chunk more HPS outweighs a 15-20% dps increase If your dieing a lot on raids as a scout its because you or your raid is doing something wrong and nothing to do with AA selection. Your job on Raids is debuff and do as much damage as possible without drawing agro, basically thats it.
Nero Im not gonna argue with you... if you think you can match my DPS speced STA your just stupid. As for tanking, I tank myself. 90% of my time is spent Duo with my boxed warden. Going stam line will help you tank in groups I agree 100% but weather you go stam or wis or str or go get the harclave buff and find a way to get it out of the zone you cannot tank a 70+ epic named encounter. You cant tank the Doom trio you cant tank Prime you cant tank Vym you cant tank Pain you cant tank a 70+ epic encounter. You lack the taunts to keep appropriate agro. Even if you could tank in labs there are 4 classes that dont tank raids for the most part that would be more suited. SK Pal Monk Bruiser. Opps if forgot defiler... AGAIN your job on raids if to DPS and to Debuff. This post is called RAIDING SWASHY not grouping swashy not raid that wipes swashy not i can solo acrid mother swasy RAIDING SWASHY! Ive speced stam nero, I know what you lose and what you gain. Message Edited by A 12 Gauge 007 on 10-11-2006 11:37 AM
It's going to depend too on the guild you're in. It may be helpful to trio some instances with a swash, healer and another dps to get upgrades/masters, and then a STA spec is handy. Your RL may be 'OK' with this and that you still raid. He may not. It's up to you to discuss your spec with your RL and decide whether it's OK, given your spec may help guildies in other ways sometimes. But from a min-max perspective, STR-WIS or STR-AGI ftw.
Hehe STR and INT specc'd here slacker likes to keep his repair bill low and FD Still wondering if i should have gone for the double attack, well maybe when i get my hands on that nice chel'drak sword too bad it will cost me so much Onaupu Lynx L70 Swashbuckler/ L70 Tailor Unity Splitpaw
70 swashtank here - raiding (shock horror!) AAs Sta 4/4/8/8 Str 4/5/8/8. MT group. Average DPS 1100. i doubt wisdom line would add 500 and take me to 1600? Message Edited by Wildfury77 on 10-12-2006 09:05 AM
if you analyse the difference between sta and wis if you do 1100 dps with sta...you would prob do 1200-1300max with wis
How did you come up with that increase out of curiousity? What would hte wis Line put me at when i do 1450-1550 with the STA? What is the formula that you all have been using and how was it tested.
Okay. Lets say that he is getting no outside DPS buffs and his auto attack makes up 30% of his damage for 330DPS. 330/1.56 * 1.72 = 363. So worst case scenario somewhere around 30 dps from auto attack alone. Also, you get the added benefit of the double attack procing inspiration, meaning inspiration damage (which makes up 12-20% of damage on average length raid fights) is 72% higher for Wis rogues than for STA rogues. Also, the Wis line gives lunge reversal which provided pretty good damage against those higher level mobs that parry/riposte alot. Now lets say he is getting 100% dps buff from other people in his group and now his auto attack is 40% of his total damage for 440 dps, giving a raw number of 220 dps before buff. The wis rogue with 220dps and double attack and 100% dps buff will do 756dps. An increase of 316dps alone. If you add in the inspiration damage and other 100% melee procs like Caucophony of Blades from a dirge this number goes up. It is easily conceivable to get 400-500+ dps increase over a STA line rogue in the right group setup. So depending on group I would say that Wis line gives 100-500 dps over a STA line rogue. So basic formula. For sta to wis line conversion: STA auto attack damage / DPS buff to get raw auto attack (ie if you are maxed in DPS divide by 2. If you have 85% divide by 1.85. Take this raw number and multiply by 1.72 for raw double attack, then multiply by your outside raid dps buffs you get. Don't forget that you have two personal DPS buffs that may go to waste with the STA line due to cap issues. So if you get a total of 85% outside dps you have gone AAdamage/2 * 1.72 *1.85 = AAdamage * 1.591 (60% increase is nice) Next take your damage due to inspiration and multiply by 1.72 to get new inspiration damage with Wis line. Then (new AA damage - old) + (new inspiration damage - old) = total increase in damage. When you look at this you realize that there is no possible way that STA line ever will outdamage the WIS line. It just isn't possible. As for defensive abilities go the Wis line gives me 5% (I put my extra point here) to riposte front and parry from all other sectors. Each point gave me 0.6% avoidance total. So 3% avoidance versus 8% extra hp. And when you compare the top tier abilities if you took the STA line one then Coule is going to be pretty nice after EoF when skill caps are raised and they will actually mean something. Personally I have traumatic swipe so I couldnt' get coule or the top tier STA ability no matter what line I went down.
No one has ever said that the STA will out DPS the WIS line. However we have said that we have beaten some that did go down the WIS line. Good info. Some of it I doubt and will clarify a few tings nad respond back but overall looks good and detailed. Thanks.
Exactly. You swashies that are outdamaging your Wis specced counterparts will outdamage them even more if you respec. That is what I meant by my comment. I out damage another swashie that I raid with regularly by 100-200+ dps zone wide and we have nearly the same equipment and CA upgrades. Only difference in our AA lines is I have traumatic swipe and the other swash has lunge reversal maxed and the other points put elsewhere. Player ability matter a lot, but all things equal everyone would see an upgrade in damage with Wis line over STA. I havent' looked deeply into the Agi line but it looks promising as well because you get to dual wield and get a high damage proc. Edit: My post was in no way meant to sway people one way or another, but just to provide numbers. People can do what they want with thier AAs. I am happy with mine and don't plan on changing. Message Edited by SmCaudata on 10-12-2006 02:47 PM
The fact that you can out DPS a WIS/STR spec'd swashie is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm a WIS/STR spec'd brigand and I out DPS other WIS/STR brigands all the time. It's just a result of equipment, effort and skill, not the AA's themselves. When I'm in a good raid group my auto attack DPS is usually around 50% of my total DPS, which just magnifies the impact of the STR/WIS line vs. STR/STA or STR/AGI lines.
Allies: (01:00) 614911 | 10248.52 Swashbuckler 117668 | 1961.13 Necromancer 65455 | 1090.92 Necromancer 57095 | 951.58 Assassin 48431 | 807.18 Warlock 45711 | 761.85 Ranger 38090 | 634.83 Swashbuckler 37462 | 624.37 Note that one swashbuckler parsed considerably lower than the other although they were both specced for WIS. What I'm trying to say is, don't think that just because some swashes can't play their class that STA line is in any way a better choice than WIS for raiding. When a STA specced swash parses 2k then yeah I'll agree with you, but I'd sure like to see that parse.
Wisdom has the potential to boost your DPS, STA does not. Nobody is saying that if you choose wisdom you WILL parse 2k regularily, but they are saying you CAN. You still need to put in the effort.
WIS will make the difference for two equally equipped and talented swashes in the same group makeup. If you choose to handicap yourself for DPS to be a better tank for group and some lesser raid content, fine, but to max DPS then WIS is the way. Double attack/etc wins over STA DPS mods when you're capped. Will be interesting to compare again when stat and DPS/haste caps are raised in November...
The DPS mod doesn't affect me personally cause when I am not tanking I dual wield so I do not get that bonus. It will be interesting
If you're dual wielding then you get almost no benefit from the STA line as opposed to a 72% chance to double attack from the WIS line when raiding, but somehow you want people to believe that you're choice has little or no impact on your raid DPS - bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. The stamina line is a great line for a lot of things (which may be more important to you than raiding) but it's a mediocre choice for raiding. That isn't a matter of opinion, it's matter of mathmatics.
