Please reverse this unfair damage throttling for non-T1 and T2 DD classes.

Realy, you seen no difference?

• At VoV you are with a "paladin + etherealist" with equal gear to the DD, you had done about from 50% to 70% the damage of a T1 DD ...
  [in absolute numbers about 2T to 2.5T as damage output at a named target]
• now, with RoR, you are with the paladin vs. a T1 DD at about 10% to 15% of the damage of a T1 DD.
  [in absolute numbers about 0.3T to 0.6T as damage output at a named target] (in groups)
• At raids it was about 15% to 25% of a T1 DD.
  [in absolute numbers about 0.5T to 0.9T as damage output at a named target]

But this all depends from a lot of variables. But seen no difference, was for sure wrong.

• But it affects all classes that are not T1 / T2 DD's.
• Our healers e.g. are in groups between about 0.035T to 0.6T depending on the class. (in groups)
• Our supporters are around 0.15T to 0.4T. (in groups)

T1 / T2 DD are between about 1.0T up to 6.0T, also depending at the classes and situations. The standard in the most situations was about 3.5T to 4.0T. (in groups)

Okay thank you for this post, as a numbers person this has made it clear to me what you are talking about and I now think I understand what you are meaning!

I'm only in H1s and H2s as my Paladin, so I can't speak about H3+raids, but I am in H3+raids as my Conjuror.

I believe the difference you're talking about is the fact that Combat mit was seemingly changed for RoR to affect stats differently than it did previously in VoV, because these deltas between VoV and RoR content you're mentioning have based on my data affected all of my characters, including the Conjuror, not just my non T1 classes.

This in my experimentation is for two reasons, the mobs are higher level this year and therefor our abilities are more easily mitigated by them, and two the amount of resists/mitigations that mobs have has jumped far more this year than previously. Because the mobs levels jumped up and ours didn't the overall damage everyone is doing has fallen, T1 DPS just have such a large margin over T2 DPS that it seems they are less affected but this is the same margin I was seeing last year in VoV as well.

The Delta I'm seeing on my Paladin in RoR versus VoV, or more simply the reduction in his DPS, is nearly identical to what I am seeing on my Conjuror and Swashbuckler. I haven't been able to find any data in my parses over the last few months that show a specific difference for my Conjy over any of my other toons.

I do agree that this expansion has a fundamental issue, the gating of "unoptimized" groups is... ridiculous and I really dislike it. That being said I have been through all H1s and H2s with unoptimized groups with no issues so far, including double rogue H2 runs with no T1 DPS and while the fights took a bit longer it hasn't made them unviable. That said, I also have seen casual groups completely struggle to get through even the simplest of H1s, this was due to lacking the correct RoR gear though.

Anyway TLDR version, I think I get what you're talking about now and I agree it is an issue but I haven't seen it affect any specific classes more than any others.

Exactly. EVERYONE had their DPS drop, and some people were just better than others and countering the drop with their stat gains/playstyle - There is no evidence for this claim Ingerimm is making that I have seen or that anyone has shown; though I'd love to see some so I can figure out a cause if it exists.

The classes are irrelevant. This expansion shines a spotlight on the difference between "Elite" players and Casuals. I've seen Pally Tanks carry whole groups through H1's where the rest of the group were all doing under 50B dps. Properly geared, well played T2 classes and tanks are able to severely outperform poorly played T1's in this expansion and that is pretty new. The problem with all this is that DB's desire to make things challenging for top guilds has left no margin for error. New Players and Casuals are unable to complete any kind of content because missing any single part of the puzzle sends them all the way to zero.

A well played tank outperforming a poorly played t1 isnt new. Its been a thing since literally forever.

I can personally remember being a brand new player, running in a PUG with my guardian, a paladin, and Dissolutions warlock.

That warlock ripped through amends and moderate like they werent even there. Great players making bad players look bad is not new.

Conversely, I remember running PUGs in later expansions and carrying groups as a tank. Its the nature of the game.

There are just a lot more ways to be absolutely twrrible than there are to be good.

One should also stick to the facts and come to the problems actually addressed and not from hundreds to thousands.

The problem that you can't really do anything senceful in groups if you don't have any T1 / T2 DD's in the group remains, no matter how you try to distort or downplay the facts. Due to the massively shifted balance in the DPS towards the T1/T2 DD's. Also the problems with undestaffed group stays.

Just like the fact that you are now absolutely forced to use short-time adornments, painlinks, the other consumables and so on and have to collect the necessary resources, which are massively beyond the scope, and that exactly this does not make sense, but is massively exaggerated.

Some people may be able to do this well since they have their home groups with enough T1/T2 DD's. Or these people who have 25 characters with resource plants and pack ponies that they pick up every day to feed a single character. But this isn't the bulk of players, it just makes sense that a single character can't support them in a reasonable amount of time.

This is a feedback channel to address issues that exist and should be resolved rather than belittled for personal gain.

A) I've done my share of H1 and H2 groups where I was the highest DPS as a Guardian. Was it *much* slower than with a real DPS? Yes. Was it so slow that we couldn't do the dungeon? No. Was it slow enough that I don't want to do it that way? Yes, because I personally don't like going that slow, but I'm also used to running with some of the best DPS available when I run groups.

B) You absolutely do not HAVE to run with temp adorns on. Does it make it faster? Sure it does. Same with links. I don't typically use temp adorns or snacks in heroics, personally, and my DPS is better than nearly any PUG DPS I end up with, because gear and spell tiers make a bigger difference.

C) Disagreeing with you and pointing out that you should have some evidence to back up your claim, which WAS that there is throttling of the DPS for non 'T1/T2 DD' - without telling us which classes you believe those are - is not belittling you, and I have no idea how anyone here would have any 'personal gain' from it. If anything, agreeing with you to get my class buffed would.. increase my dps?

All I did was say that IF you can provide some EVIDENCE or PROOF of your unsubstantiated claim, I would be happy to look through it and see if I can figure out why you are seeing that lack of damage from yourself and your other 'non T1/T2 DD'. If I was going to get into belittling, it would be a much different response.

Yeah this illustrates kind of a core problem in their design right now for RoR.

I gotta admit, the scaling from the newest version of Flawless has me as a non raider pretty worried. Like I get that me and my friends are the tiniest of tiny minorities to have cleared all group content like h3s and don't raid, but uh, flawless ticking up 50+ fervor/fervor overcap for every tier upgrade isn't exactly small and since all the upgrades are loading on raiding, there is absolutely no way the dps checks for people with every p2w thing and like 300 more fervor is going to be anywhere near balanced for people without that mountain of stats.

Going back to the thread, and making things way more accessible for casuals, just smoothing out the stat gains from everything else helps tremendously. Like making the increases in stats from resolve smaller and buffs proportionally bigger goes the other way, because the less hardcore people just have less of those. When gains from resolve are higher, it evens things out a lot just by incidental gearing. But right now I mean the main purpose of resolve upgrades is being able to swap to lower resolve gear that have better stat mixes which is absolutely backwards. Like if flawless started at clearing all solos in RoR, and ticked up on h1, h2, and h3, and you bumped down the tier gains from 30% to 10% across all upgrades, that would be a heck of a lot smaller difference between what you're gonna see come by the end of the xpac. And thinking you can balance characters with 400, 500 higher fervor vs others just isn't gonna work with current dps breakdowns.

Taled most certainly is not a forum troll. He gives well reasoned comments based on actual in-game testing. Name calling, by the way, is against forum rules.

He trolls me since yeas at all my, for sure, senceful postings. So he was a troll. But sorry if i make a mistake against the rules, english was not my native language therefore it is possible that i have passed this.

• A good example of this is always pushing evidence from others, dismissing anything other than mere allegations, and never providing a single piece of evidence for his own statements. Always getting people involved in pointless discussions, which pushes the actual issues into the background. Often enough statements are made by him which simply do not apply, e.g. one of the favorite topics "amends". Where false statements are made every time.

Its hard enough for me post down the problems i see in english and not any time to fight against relativizing meaningless statements. My posts also was everytime based on actual in-game testings and viewed game situations.

I wasn't aware that asking you to provide evidence for your claims was trolling.

If anything, I VERY much avoid saying things that would be considered trolling when responding to most posts - including yours - specifically because I am, as you put it, 'well known'. While my wife might appreciate me getting banned and not doing anything with EQ anymore, I enjoy being able to waste the time.

That said, pointing out that you refuse to provide any evidence for your claim and saying that I don't personally see that happening doean't require me providing evidence - you are claiming something is happening that no one else has corroborated, even anecdotally, much less with evidence, cannot be seen as trolling by anyone without a bias. As to the 'Amends' topic - you disagreeing with, well, every other person playing the game doesn't make the statements we make false.

You say that your posts are always based on in game testing and situations, which SHOULD mean you have evidence to back it up. That's all I have said. If you want to make a claim like you have - "Ascension spells hit for wildly different amounts on two characters with almost the exact same stats just because they are different classes" - you need to provide evidence to back it up.

If you wanted to post this as JUST 'Heroics require too much DPS to finish in a reasonable amount of time unless you have extremely well geared T1 DD in your group' I doubt anyone would argue, but you made a VERY SPECIFIC claim, with no evidence.

What do you define as "noticeable damage"? My Pally in H1s does 600B - 1T in non ideal gear, which is enough to carry an H1 group through all the zones. H2s are half that, again in non ideal gear and as a tertiary alt this year. I've seen Zerkers and Monks that are able to carry H1 groups and do enough DPS in H2 to be considered a T2 DPS.

None of the complaints you've made seem to be related to being a tank.

On Wednesday I was in a group that cleared Grange H3 in a bit over 30 minutes with a Zerker, Monk, Conjy, Defiler, Coercer and Dirge. By your logic we shouldn't have stood a chance or it should have taken a crazy amount of time. What do you consider sensible time frame?

I can't speak to this, since AB is quite dead, but usually finding a DPS is not the issue for us.

You are making wild claims about how the mechanics are functioning this expansion and providing no proof to your argument. The bolder the claims the more proof is required to back it up.

Post some ACT parses showing that you, using identical abilities with identical stats to a T1 or T2 DPS, are hitting for less damage. Then we can figure out what is going on.

But that's not what your OP was about. Your OP was "everyone other than T1 and T2 are having their damage unfairly mitigated by a hidden amount" which you have provided no proof for.

Everyone I know agrees that the progression this year has been awful and the DPS requirements are terrible, but that wasn't what your original post was emphasising and isn't what the title of the thread is claiming.

You are totally entitled to give your feedback.
You don't have to put any information out if you don't want to just because someone is calling you out.
Your feedback is very important.

Now they may run things differently around here but being in customer service for longer than I want to say, I know a customer is entitled to it.

Period.

When you have time look through the Feedback threads for the one-time posters coming here and what they have said.
The ones that are giving concerned feedback. You'll know the ones.

I'm glad they do their best to challenge the top guilds. Who doesn't love a challenge?

I just wish there was a way to keep the casual players in game.

This is what killed the Guild I'm in.
There is a lot of bitterness from these players who walked away, blaming it on all the Raiders because they simply couldn't keep up with the demand without paying to get ahead or quitting their jobs.
It was a hope of mine that the Developers would see how many players walked away and why they did so.

I thought the answer was just to dice up the Servers based on playstyle with no character transfers so they could tweek the scripts and requirements for Hardcore, ect, ect.
I'm simple minded and I'll admit it.

The problem is that once again, the devs made the jump from Solos to Heroics too steep. It really didn't help that they decided at the very last possible second to make tiers of the belt red runes AND made them extremely rare drops.

In Beta, I generally thoroughly test Solo content. Perhaps Beta needs to have a way to test the transition from Solo to Heroics. Not by providing people with Heroic gear, which is the usual thing, but making a set of "the average stuff we expect people to get from Solo content" available then trying them vs. H1s. I think that the Heroic testing gear that is usually handed out in Beta is probably better than what I had on the day I finished the Music Box quests.

Starting H1s shouldn't be dead simple... a little challenge is a great thing. We had bad issues with Tawerek in Overgrowth, the second goblin (Migral Strongfeet?) in Kigathor's Glade, The Haunting in Terrene (with any non-Crusader tank), etc. When you try the pull a dozen times and at the end of several hours of play you still haven't been able to kill it, that's discouraging. So much so that people left the game because they felt they'd never progress to H2s, never mind raids.

Having a few pops of good loot in places like rewards from Achievements, some PQs, an occasional collection, and the like would go a long way to making early content more exciting for people. I wouldn't want the crate system like in VoV, but being able to get a nice item helps keep people playing. I actually suspect that if there were also better-looking "golly-lookit-that!" effects on certain select weapons and neat gear appearances on an occasional piece, that would also be a carrot some people would appreciate. Not every item needs to have amazing stats, but make some appearance items that look so amazing that people will also be glad to get those.

Ingerimm feels that non-DPS classes should do more DPS. Whereas I, as a warlock, feel that actual DPS classes should not have a "flavor of the month/expansion", and that if you are a T1 DPS, your DPS should look like it, and T2 DPS should likewise show a clear plateau on an ACT parse above the other classes. A Crusader shouldn't be out-healing the raid healers. Bards shouldn't out-cure the healers, either. People who choose a class want to excel at that class.

In regards to having problems with groups where you couldn't get a T1 DPS, well, we figured out pretty early this expansion that we needed three times the DPS that I could do as a warlock. That meant in a group that I was in we either needed someone (a T1) doing double my damage, or two T2s doing about the same damage I was. In order to succeed, we still needed support classes, healers, and tanks, but I'd hate to tell you how many times my warlock was the sole power regen for a group this expansion. Being a warlock and able to do some power regen should be added utility, not my main role in the group. Warlocks should be absolutely deadly when we fight group encounters, and contribute DPS meaningfully to Name fights.

But if I'm playing a healer, then the goals shift. When I'm playing a priest, I want to keep my group healthy, uncursed, un-DOTted, and alive. If I can sling some DPS during all that, it's nice. But it's not he main thing I'm there for as a healer.

Similarly, Bards as Scouts should do some DPS, but where they should shine is at buffing or debuffing.

Chanters should probably do a bit more DPS than they are, and they should shine at power-feeding. If presented with a choice between a Chanter vs. Warden or a Bard for powerfeed, a group should always want the Chanter.

Tanks need to do some DPS to help hold aggro. But their role in a group is to be offensively rude to the foes and prevent them from eating the faces off the healers and DPS.

I don't see any upsides to making non T1 and T2 DPS do much higher DPS, because that's not what they are for!

Feeling like non-dps classes should do more dps is one thing. We have a claim here that the same spell will hit for less damage by some classes than others with the same stats.
I personally do not see that going on. As a templar, if I have more stats than a dps my ascensions spells hit for more than theirs. However, normally I have less stats and buffs so my ascensions spells will hit for less.

On our last kandti kill my fiery incineration had an average hit of 821 whatever the appropriate units is. A dps with significantly more stats and buffs than me hit for 1826. A dps with stats between the two of us had an average hit of 1,366. A healer with less stats than me had an average hit of 288(this healer also does not have the new version of the spell upgraded, where everyone else mentioned has the new one at ancient, so that will also make their hits much lower).
The average hit is directly correlated with stats and buffs. Every time I've looked at parses the difference in what ascensions hit for is either because the people have very different stats or one person's spell is upgraded and the other is not. Everytime I've seen people with similar stats, buffs and the same lvl of the spell using it they hit for similar amounts regardless of class.