Please reverse this unfair damage throttling for non-T1 and T2 DD classes.

While this doesn't really match my experiences in RoR, I think buffing up less popular group compositions is extremely healthy for the game. The amount of investment required into characters with mounts, mercs, spell research, familiars, etc, etc makes it very unlikely most players have comparable alts or find it viable to switch mains, even if they wanted to.

Imagine for one moment... a HEROIC group actually requires 6 people and those that arent' considered T1 have to do actually "Support stuff" while the dps does dps stuff. The days of bards auto attacking and staying on board with a t1 dps is gone. The days of a healer auto attacking and staying onboard with a t1 dps are gone. That expansion alone (BOL) made everyone seem like they could DPS and be at the top of the parse and thats where they belonged, and it had NOTHING to do with playstyle. They simply reforged stats into all auto attack stuff and boom they parsed super super high. Nothing about that was skill lol, it was Caith messing it up, and then went the complete opposite again. Even if they tweak support a little, a healer/bard shouldn't be able to roll into heroics and clear them lol. It was never the intent, even though it has been done lol.

the high amounts of resources is a direct result of people complaining about depots being full... guess what people haven't been complaining about for the last 2 expacs.. Sometimes, u just reap what you sow. People should've just deleted mats 2 expacs ago instead of complaining lol and the inherently high amount of raws needed wouldn't even exist. Sometimes people should just really leave well enough alone lol..

I'm trying to think of any situation where you wouldn't take a dps class anyway lol...

What is your group:
Tank/2 heals/bard/chanter/and something else?

Are you looking to run a group with no tank at all?

Tank/one heal/bard or chanter/and then 3 of any dps you want.

What is a senseful group to you? You're not really supposed to be able to do group instances with less than 6. There not Solos lol. Sure when you get more and more gear you can cut down the people.

Should you be able to do H3 with not a full group? Like what are we talking about. There are three versions of heroics.

As for the raid thing.. u can most definitely do raids without 12 DPS in the raid and be successful.

Why not? It used to be possible in EQ2 before bulwark were introduced. The game is bleeding players because people cant login and get any group content done because of a lack of tanks, healers, pfers or a p2w T1. The difference between a normal T1 and p2w T1 is insane.

Any group I can get together within 20 minutes of logging and and clearing the heroic. Like it used to be.

Why not? Even in the last expansion this was possible before den 2 challenge was unlocked with one or two p2w T1's. Sometimes there isnt even 6 players online on some servers.

No. Challenge versions of instances should require a proper setup, but it should not limit which classes people bring. As in bringing a crusader will make it indefiently more easy or bringing a swashy instead of brigand.

I dont mind hard content, its great people wanna do the same harder instance version 40 times for an adornment, mind you this is also a thousand times easier if you bring a T1 p2w player, but that shouldnt lock out everyone else from just popping in game and being able to do all other group content with little to no group setup required. ESPECIALLY with the current population and complete lack of PUGs across all servers.

I dont understand the gate keeping of the so called "hard content". EQ2 has no hard content. Everything can be rendered completely useless by swiping your credit card. The game needs to be more accesable, not as restrictive as it currently is or as p2w as its been for many years.

Is it perhaps some EQ2 fetish? I suffered, but have a guild so I can somewhat manage because I got a static group, but everyone else must suffer too?

Groups of acquaintances with whom one likes to do things are like these.

• You don't just replace people just because the character class of the people doesn't suit you anymore due to game mechanics changes.
• You play the game as an MMORPG to have fun, with other people you usually know, with whom you talk on the side, with whom you laugh and have adventures.
• Turning the game into a maximum maximizer anything makes no sense to anyone. Perhaps, for a tiny minority who only play the game to do **** comparisons. But that's just the absolute minority.
• The purpose of the game is, as I said, to have fun, to master challenges, to make progress.
• But when it comes down to no longer being able to earn something, educate progress, or have fun. Since you as a group no longer have the necessary predefined class setup, then the game and the fun are simply dead.
• It's no longer the case these days that everything you would want and need in terms of people and classes is just so readily available. So you just sit around and wait and wait.
• Since you can't do anything without an explicit setup, except absolute torture. Needing 20 to 40 minutes for a T1 named, 3h to 4h for a T1 instance just because there are only 3 healers, 2 supports and a tank there, that day, would be an example. You should be able to do something in any group constellation, more or less well. But don't just have to sit around...

As far as the necessary full group with 6 players is concerned, I have already explained this.

1. You have to put on enough CBOC parts to get enough critical bonus. In the end, however, this requires that everyone in the group runs a painlink + if possible 2x "Field Medic" so that the CBOC also brings something.
2. If one person is missing, then at least about 900 critical bonuses are missing for everyone in the group.
3. You must use Short-Time Adornments for the same reason in order to get enough critical bonus. The differences in dps are just too high to ignore.
4. This system is just plain frustrating and not very smart. It generates an impossibly high amount of effort, in order to have a few hours of fun you have to endure many times the frustration to find the necessary resources.
5. It may be that there were people who complained about full boxes because they wanted bigger boxes. But … nobody forced these people to continue collecting when their boxes were full. Complaining about it, was and is, so just stupid, since it's a self-created problem.
6. On the other hand, you are now forced to get the necessary resources somehow, or you can no longer play properly and this is exactly where the difference to full crates lies.

This honest to god makes me wonder, 'what is the *lowest* dps group you could make, all things being equal, that could still get synergy'? Three healer groups right now are pretty grim times. Grim, grim times.

Pretty much any group with me in it is the **lowest** dps group...

• If you read it correct, you can see it was an exapmle.
• I play with people i know and like, people who are fair and honest.
• I do no pickups anymore.
• I take all possible setups.
• In the past, for 18 years, everything was possible with any group setup. From 5 healers + me as a tank over an normal group setup up to top DD groups. But it depends on who is there and available, you can't really choose anymore. One is glad nowadays to get a group of 6 people together. Being picky on top of that only means that you can do even less or have to take people with you where you know that these guides will only take advantage of you and scam you.
• Most strong DDs only run with other equally strong people or even stronger players, since there is always a time advantage.
• Only a few players take care of those who are not so strong because of time or ability or gear. But I'm doing this now as ever. But you can't build anyone up or advance them under the current conditions.
• It must also be possible to achieve something with average players and not optimal setups.
• Measuring DPS itself is difficult. Since almost every named adds spawn, such information is trivial that this increases the dps in the parse, the real dps is usually much lower. But a group of 6 players without a DD can do about 600.000.000.000 to about 1.000.000.000.000 dps (at a heroic 1 named). But thats not enough for a good game experience. If one good T1 DD was in the group its about 4.000.000.000.000 to about 6.000.000.000.000 dps. Thats the problem. This diffrence between without and with a T1 or T2 DD was the problem, that you need them. With more strong DD's at the group the dps raises expotentialy...
• Sometimes there are only 4 players, with only 4 you can do nothing at this addon in heroics, also no T1 heroic.

I was agreeing with you. Well, your conclusions. Setups without t1 dps are at the largest disadvantage right now I've seen since coming back. I don't agree with a lot of your other statements since they just aren't true from my experiences, and I think it undermines your points (which are valid) when you say X is impossible when it very clearly is not. I agree with you about the gaps but I've routinely dragged 1-2 corpses through h2s to help them catch up on resolve when they are like 100-200 under, and like I would expect people with the stats you are talking about to be able to 4 man h2s without a lot of problems and I literally don't know what is not working there. Like you can trio Amatheon without a t1 dps and I don't think there's any magic at play here, this stuff is just a stat check and the stats you are talking about are good for tanks/support damage. What you describe is so far from my experiences for non t1 dps with 36k+ cb, 1100~ fervor, 1.1m potency that I have no idea what's so radically different.

I think it is much more accurate to say that getting people statistically to the point where they can meaningfully contribute in heroics right now is too difficult, the resolve jumps are too large, and that the gap between T1 dps and anything else is too big. But saying you need 6 to blow up an h1 is silly when I know I could trio the entire weekly and it would not take that long to do it. 5 minute fights instead of 15 second blowouts is a huge difference but it's not the 30 minute brawls when trying h2s while 90 resolve under either.

Auto attack and ascension spells both being very weak has dropped a baseline floor out from damage that is contributing to this. Like when Levinbolt 3 does 20% of the damage as my biggest replacement attack at the same spell quality that's pretty depressing, and I would have to sacrifice a ridiculous amount of stats to try to get auto attack above a percent parse. 3 players with high stats grouping with 3 people that do not in h1 should not do 98% of the parse compared to the other 3, not when they are at resolve. The scaling is just atrocious, and a lot of players contributions are rounding errors. That's not sustainable.

this post has at least one merit, reassured those who left after vov, sensing a similar upcoming expansion.
For that, I confess to being happy to have made this choice and that your lines reassure me. But I sympathize

All things what i wrote was true. But everyone can have his own meaning.

Imposible was a strong word, i use mostly with an additon as e.g. "in a senseful amount of time". I repeated this "addition" not all the time, sorry.

No one will need for a T1 heroic named 40 minutes, hold the script for 40 minutes, with all the cures and dispells. this also means impossible, then the most people would do this not a lot more then some times, then its boring, stressful and no fun.
Exspecialy if you know the counterpart with a DD in from 3 minutes down to under 1 minute for the same.

While, I may not completely agree with all of Ingerimm's points, the general idea of what he is saying has significant merit and the game is much harder for non optimized groups to complete heroic content in a reasonable manor.

The core reason for this is the dps requirements, and there being a runaway scaling of T1 and T2 compared to other classes. Using some real numbers from my own heroics, they can give some percentages we can compare the dps of T1, vs myself a T4, a healer. In a stacked group, you have a T1 doing like 10T dps, while you have myself on the same fight doing 1T, and a tier 3 doing 1.5T to 2T. So the way that works out is you have tier 4 doing about 10 percent of a tier 1, and tier 3 doing 15 to 20 percent. While many not realize this anymore, this game was originally balanced around the idea of 4 dps tiers, with tier 1 being 100%, tier 2 being 75%, tier 3 being 50%, and tier 4 being 25%, at least in theory, obviously the game never followed this completely, but it used to be much closer.

When the game has drifted so far towards this imbalanced dps spread between the classes, creating content that is reasonable becomes harder and harder for non optimized groups. Frankly, the solution to this issue isn't as simple to implement as many may believe, but I do think that for the health of the game it is important to try to tackle this problem.

Guardian
Templar
Illusionist
Troubador
Defiler
Warden

That would get synergy. Dunno if you could even manage a H1 with that, tho. The illy would be the most DPS probably with that setup.

That's my point. You're making this claim, but you are providing zero evidence for it.

I don't see any evidence of it in my groups or raids, but I can't conclusively say it isn't happening. So, since you're claiming it is happening: Provide some evidence to back up your claim.

• Well, for one thing, I don't know that I have to prove anything, we're not in court here. On the other hand, you can test this for yourself.
• Pictures that are uploaded via free services disappear quickly and are often only displayed with a long delay, so I'll save this this time.
• But you can see it that way only because of the difference in the DPS itself.
• Or where do you think the massive difference that didn't exist in the old addon before the start of the addon comes from?
• Incidentally, all my tests were always with at least equal resolve to the target immunity.

You're making a pretty massive claim and providing zero evidence to back it up. If you want any chance of being taken seriously, you should back it up with *something* other than 'trust me, it is happening!'.

The difference in DPS is almost certainly due to the fact that the DPS class is SUPPOSED to do more damage, as opposed to the fact that ascension classes are outdated and almost noone has upgraded their ascension abilities to be relevant in new content. The old ascension spells don't hit as hard as they say they will for *anyone*, not just for 'non T1 DD', because you're using outdated spells. Use your BoL tier spells on RoR mobs and you'll do less DPS as well. However, you specifically claimed that there is some magically threshold that is specifically limited the abilities shared between classes even if you have the exact same stats, which you are not providing ANY evidence for.

If you are making claims that there is a fundemental issue with base mechanics in the game you NEED to provide Data to allow others to replicate/verify your claims. Not just other players but for the Devs as well. This is the Feedback thread and that is the base minimum required.

You can upload pictures to any discord server entirely free and then right click and "copy link" then insert those into the forums here. They never get removed so long as the discord server you are posting to isn't deleted.

Or you can just copy plain text data into your post showing what you are talking about. It's super easy!

I've seen no difference between my Paladin's parse in VoV vs RoR, other than the obvious "grind Fervor and CBocap" which impacted all classes equally. I've seen no difference in my Swashbuckler who easily tops AoE fights and can keep within 60% of T1 DPS on single target fights between VoV and RoR.

I'd be happy to test to verify your claims, spreadsheets are life, but with how little information and the zero data provided I have no where to even start looking.

This is the more important point in this thread. I feel part of the issue is that the reduced stat-scaling from gear makes it less likely for players to outgear poor class balance vs content, combined with negligible autoattack and weak ascensions removing a damage floor that leveled out classes slightly. Most T1 classes do just feel too high, though. I mean, they obviously shouldn't be brought down to competing-with-tanks-and-priests like assassins, but there's just some enormous outliers.

Most of the time players can ignore these imbalances and it becomes people doing a weekly in 6 hours rather than 30 minutes, but the moment they run into a hard dps check with a low-damage group it becomes really, really apparent - and some of the h1 zones that don't have h2/h3 equivalents have dps checks built into them that make them utterly miserable for very low damage groups. This is actually another departure from VoV, where dps checks were almost entirely absent in h1 content.

Okay I'm honest to god embarrassed to admit it but I have Levinbolt 3 and the new Mana Schism at ancient because I had spell research to burn and I wanted to see if it would be a significant damage increase as a tank. It's... not. They are marginally better than spamming the fast recast CAs but only barely just. For comparison for Levinbolt 3 on Amatheon had a max hit of 2T, while Annihilate hit for 8.5 or something, and even dismember was hitting for like 2.1T. I can do really rigorous parses and controlling for stat shifts if people want but to be honest they are pretty garbage and I wish I moved the spell research pots to an alt instead.

No in principle nobody has to prove anything here.

It is certainly nice to have additional data, but to deliver it, is unfortunately quite difficult. Especially when it comes to reliable precise numbers. There are simply too many variables for that.

• When I say my trunk T1 DD, which is a ranger + etherealist, does up to 5 times damage with his ascenions spells, as I do with my paladin + etherealist, then trifles it that way. And he had lower stats as i am have. Compare the max hits of the ascension spells on a target, but also note, there are legendary, fabled and mythical crits. You can only compare the same types with each other.

The fact is and I don't think that anyone will deny, as others have already written ... That, if you open your eyes, you really play the game and be rated in the evaluation of the situation that has been going on for about 3 months now. That it is as I described it.

Groups without T1 / T2 DD's are simply no longer sencefull possible.

As Tyrval already wrote it, I also have all the new ascension spells of my ascension, raised since I owned them to ancient, because I still had enough leveling positions. And you don't notice any real difference to the previous versions, from this ascensions. From the spell numbers itself it seems a about 30% to 40% increase, but not in real.

Furthermore, it is a fact that you can no longer senceful make anything meaningful with understaffing groups.

We only talk about T1 what the entry into the heroic content is. This is just ridiculous if, due to the lack of T1 and T2 DD's, you can no longer do anything senceful in the groups.

The developers will already know, what they have done, to create this massive DPS difference between the classes, that cause the problems.