Passive Stance for fighters.

Zerkers are NOT main tanks.

That spot is reserved for Monks/Bruisers/Guardians. (in that order.)

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

This just proves to me that you dont really know how to play a Zerk or know what you are talking about at all. Zerks can MT just fine with the correct set up.

All the tanks can be MT just some are better than others and you complaining about ripping aggro of the MT of your raid just proves it.

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Why would you use a positial increase if you are not main tanking? Yes, some do damage, but it's not that much of a difference if you'd just avoid hitting them.

So let's lay this out in a simple manner:
Don't want aggro? Then don't hit an ability that takes aggro.
Ta-da! Problem solved!

If your not going to discuss what the topic is, please don't post here.

You never commented on my idea, and your really not helping with the problem, your insight is already known and wrote down, however I would like positive insight on the idea at hand, not your preference to the problem.

I will tell you why that will not work:

My highest damaging low reuse abilitys have positionals tied to them, but sometimes its worth the damage to use them, because they up my damage.


The buff idea I have above on the first post, it does nothing but make you weaker.
- Sets your hate gain to 0.
- Sets your threat increasers to 0.
- Removes positionals on damage spells.

Thats all it does, its kind of like the -1000% AOE autoattack buff, and its exactly the same concept.

Hear are my thoughts on your idea

1) Tanks are not DPS and do not need a DPS Stance ( cause thats what you are asking for )

2) Tanks are ment to tank if you are pulling aggro due to hitting an attack that has positional hate attached to it its your fault for pulling aggro not the MT. Cause anyone that has ever raided knows they are responsable for thier aggro not the tank.

3) If Tanks are given a DPS stance that reduces our hate gain what is that saying to the rest fo the DPS class that are responsable for thier own aggro? If you /cry enough on the forums you will get your way? That is part of the problem now. Players come to the forums and cry loud enough and get things changed that do not need changed for thier own personal benifit. Perfect example is PvP gear PvE Raiders complained that the Open World PvP gear was better than the BG gear and thier hard earned PvE Raid Gear and that the BG gear was to good in PvE situations so we ended up with to much gear seperation which caused dead BG's ( not that that hurts my feelings any ) and Dead Open world PvP cause people do not want to be out in the open fighting PvE and get jumped and 2-3 shotted by someone in full PvP gear.

So in closing horrible idea Tala and I have explained why.

Sorry Kimber, this stance does not improve your DPS at all.
Reread it.

Nor did I say any place that it would. But we all know that it would increase a fighters DPS if they are able to hit all combat arts with out having to watch the hate meter. What you ar asking for is the ability to hit all CA's with out consequence or thought.

Reread what I wrote now keeping that in mind.


/thread

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

There is not a single class that does not sacrifice in order to perform a role they do not fit. Being a tank means your optimal job is tanking. It falls to reason (and has always been the case) that if you are not tanking, your class is no longer optimized which is why you wind up with useless or detrimental abilities for the task at hand... aside from the near-useless ones Berserkers have as default anyway.

The simple solution is to have some gear to replace the hate gain bonuses and to not use positionals (2 blues and 1 red positional CA do damage if I remember correctly). While it might be true that more DPS equals a greater chance at a successful raid kill, it is also true that a stable tanking setup where the MT doesn't lose aggro all the time is also (and likely more) successful.
If you really want a hate/positional reducer in a buff, it should be a part of the offensive stance. A seperate buff seems like we'd be trying to cheat the system. We do not need the offensive stance to tank and hold aggro anyway... it's just a trap (or maybe sham?) we fall into when trying to get us closer to the top of the parse.

Kaberu wrote:

Off tanking is much harder to do then main tanking.

This buff is mostly for off tanks.

No buffs tied to a stance please, thats a stupid idea, we already cleared that up with Aerilik.

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

The suggested buff seems like an overkill response for which the only purpose would be to boost a parse by a small fraction of an amount (which is less fraction-y in large group fights) by letting you click two more abilities maybe a few more times in a fight in a longer fight.
It being suggested as a seperate buff from a stance seems like an attempt to keep being able to tank while in offensive stance (which isn't necessary).
Considering that in another topic you also want a buff to reduce spike damage, while apparently tanking in offensive (and if I had to guess while dual wielding based on a smattering of your posts), I'd have to say anyone should take your suggestions with a grain of salt as you sometimes seem to have a sort of cognitive dissonance when it comes to how you tank and what you want to do as a tank.

Although I'd be happy to admit that I'm wrong if that is indeed the case...
Honestly, it seems like the actual problem is that hate gain, DPS (overall, not the stat), Potency, CB, etc. seems to be more important than taunts. If aggro and hate gain was focused more on taunts directly at higher teirs instead of spread around, there wouldn't be any need for special abilities to manage positions or threat.

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Your stated reason for wanting this stance is to allow you to more effectively leverage your high-damage snap-aggro abilities when not tanking. The end result of which would be an increase in your DPS. If all you cared about was controlling your aggro, you already have all the tools you need to do that: turning off auto-attack and/or not using CAs. What you want is a way to minimize your threat generation while maximizing your DPS.
Guess what, that's what every DPS class wants, too!
Tanks are not a DPS class. Classically, this has been made evident by the fact that tanks were simply not capable of matching the DPS output of real DPS classes. In situations where the tank significantly outgears the DPS classes present and is capable of exceeding their DPS, lack of threat reduction becomes the issue. Tanks that aren't tanking can't match the DPS of real DPS classes, because they lack the tools that DPS classes use to throttle their hate generation. This is by design.
You are asking for an ability that completely invalidates an integral combat mechanic because you are trying to play your character in a way that was not intended. If you want to do a lot of DPS without taking aggro, play a DPS class. As long as you are playing a tank class, you will need to come to terms with the fact that you aren't intended to be able to maximize your DPS without getting aggro.

The_Cheeseman wrote:

It would only be an increase in DPS in certain situations. (when i'm not tanking.) Otherwise, it does not make a single bit of difference.

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

So it would result in an increase to your DPS only in those situations in which you'd actually want to use it. I think my point is made.

The_Cheeseman wrote:

So once a blue moon, seems kind of sitational, kind of like the -1000% AOE autoattack buff.

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Singular Focus is a kludge to correct the unintended behavior of a universal game mechanic. It is not an archetype-specific ability whose sole purpose is to circumvent intentional class balance features.
Plus, if the suggested ability is really as useless as you claim, why do you feel its worth development resources to implement? (The previous question was rhetorical.)

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Except that you can do more dps without ripping.
I do not want another stance like this.
That being said, i really don't care if they implement this, they can even call it Talthion's Stance for all I care, because I won't be using it or putting it on my hotbar anyway, so it effects my game play none.

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

The fact that you are in the top 5 on a dps parse means you most likely out-gear the people you are raiding with. If this is the case, it is dumb to suggest game changes based on this.
You need to either get a better MT, or learn to play with a little finess and control your aggro. As an off-tank on a progression pull, you are (probably) there to tank things, assist other tanks in keeping mobs off raid members, and damage control when bad things start to happen. You only need enough dps to build enough threat to hold aggro off the raid, and enough survivability to play your role in the content your guild is doing, and THEN the rest is dps. If you are there trying to maximize your dps, for one you picked a poor dps class, and for two, make sure your raid leader knows you're there for dps and that people aren't buffing you with hate or expecting you to tank anything. Also, drop your hate mod AAs/adornments/whatever.
Save the dpspeen for trash and pharm mobs. On a progression pull, be serious and do the job you are there to do. There is no reason you should be going balls-out dps if it's causing your raid problems. Stop being a detriment to your guild.

While I am not supporting this idea, I think it would be not quite as bad if it merely prevented effects which add hate gain, without actually providing you with massive de-hate buffs that other dps have to itemize and buff for. If you want to be a dps class, then if you take agro with pure dps, that should be a problem.

I can't decide if the proposed new fighter buff is like what Tala wanted or what I wanted. Seems a lot like the one i proposed but idk. Guess well see on test.

Dunno, I think I sent a PM to a dev about it. :/
Mostly think its your idea though.