oul_Dreamer wrote: Even with a large ward we *still* have to take the damage in order to heal it; and perhaps more importantly scale the ward up enough to TAKE the hits... 12-15k ward will for the most part be ALL that is needed to heal you on herioc pulls cycle Stonewall into that as well as our oither heals and you're going to skew the entire thing up even further. I'm not saying that pallys shouldn't have heals but we need better scaling methods than simply ramping the numbers up as you pointed out the HPS will be lower from a spamming point of view... but the ward right now cannot be spammed much at all dure I cycle it regually as possible but thanks to interupts the only really reliable way to cast it is pre pull; this is doubly true in instances where we have dozens of mobs on us and all we can do is hit our AoEs a few times and then its all dead... and even our spell AoEs are interupted like crazy as well. The easiest and best ways to scale up abilities without actually adding numbers to them is simply to add additional effects on them instead so you're part casting it for the effect in raid. Doing what you said by changing the ward into 12-15k but increasing the recast may "look" fairer... but seriously... in 2 months time if they change it now the same few posters will be back on these paladin boards asking for a nerf as with the ability to precast you're looking at a MUCH higher share of the heal parse on short fast herioc kills. Scaling for the heals has got to be done another way and not just alter the numbers itself. And yes, that's me.
Possibly an easier way, rather than adding a crap load of abilities to them would be to make some of the heals reacties proportional to the amount of damage that hit you. A similar mechanic is in game with the Zerker Myth that adds 25% of all damage received as hate. If some heals where changed to heal for 25/30/40/50 whatever of the % damage received then it would work, along with a larger ward to initially absorb some of the AOE's. Gonna be directly in competition with your guild soon then Boli, the one I lead/raid lead/mt for is almost identical to yours but on Splitpaw
Cept I'm better We already have a similar buff, 10% of all incoming damage is healed.... which when parsed works out to be not even close to 1% of our incoming damage never mind 10%. Perhaps changing say our singlre heal to longer recast and its a SMALL HoT but if we are hit for over 50% of our health it triggers a much larger health. Either way we cannot continue as they are now.. or were before it just isn't feasible.
Killed construct yet? They need to do something constructive with heals or you'll always end up with the problem of them being useful in one area and either underpowered or overpowered in others. A while ago with them critting and with crit bonus and potency applied they where OP in heroic/solo but actually useful in Epic content. That's been reversed with the lack of crits, this will ALWAYS be the case with Paladin direct heals if they stay the way they are. You just can't win either way, there isn't a way to balance them across play styles. So either: Heals for 1k If target is solo Heals for 3k If target is heroic Heals for 7k If target is Epic On a 20 second timer. OR On spell cast this spell will heal for 50% of damage received, 10 charges, 1 second cast. 10 Second recast. I seriously think though giving you stoneskins/Mit increases and other abilities that are traditionally Warrior abilities will further blur the lines between classes and OP the Paladin class though.
amazing trollage guards.. well done great job guys you really show off your class! i mean at least read boli's posts
Soul_Dreamer wrote: And what will give heals to zerkers/SKs do?... with the Stonewill items guards already come pretty close to the same amount of heals as pallys... so you are allowed to heal but we are not allowed to gain short term mit buffs or other immunities to compensate for our VASTLY reduced healing ability The only way you could alter it to give differing healing on the class of mob you are fighting will be to have reactive heal triggers on the mob itself which will either make it stupidly OPed (mob heals raid on next attack) needless complex (I cast my heal but nothign happened why did it heal our brigand? be a nightmare for parsing programs (inquisition remember?) The 10 trigger 50% of damage can be rendered entirely useless (reactive damage procs + wards) and neither does it scale - unless you want to start off at 10% incoming damage at level 23 plus a 10s duration 10s recast will push pallys even further into possible OPed territory (being able to heal 50% of all incomiung attacks?) but also MASSIVELY increasing the spam needed... casting the same spell every 7-8s As I continually keep pointing out... unless you've actually played a pally regually in raids you have no real concept on how our heals actually work... or do not work in our case - we want to move away from having to constantlly cats our heals to actually make them do anything pallys heals should be on longer recasts be uninteruptable/instant Either be significantly more powerful OR have long durations of limited healing but more a buffing aspect Other tanks have defensive abilities/buffs... but none has to constantly cast/recast continually with interuptions move slightly and restart casting which become increasingly difficult to even use never mind that they don;t actually do anything these days. Pallys have 5 heals Lay on Hands - should be an emergancy "oh ****" momement ideally changed so its not possible to waste it right now even the with fastest reactions in the world instant cast speed you can still cast it and it either heals for 0-minisule damage or esp if the mob is rooted randomly heal another member of the raid. Aid - this should be our primary healing power; as suggested a small HoT with a single trigger to cast a large heal when a damage threshold is passed seems an ideal alternative Demonstration of Faith - Currently a ward would give more benefit and sense to have it as a tempbuff rather than constantly trying to scale up the healing depending on fight or AAs and makign it useless or OPed depending on which way you swing it in Solo/Groups/Raids. Sacrement - Currently a large heal on a long cast timer and reuse. This should be more a "oooh b4gger" short term temp buff which helps reduce incoming damage but not stop it. Prayer of Healing - Currently a group heal.. this shodul be more along the lines of a short term buff with a longer recast which helps protect the group from AoEs. We also have a few healing AA choices which need to be considered Crusader : Legionarie's mercy Crusader: Legionaries Focus Both completely useless for SKs and should be changed to be more crusader friendly rather than pally only; you could honestly drop the heal % increase from Mercy the increase it gives is laughable and the only people who benefited from it was SKs when reaver coudl be increased. Crusader's Faith How is right that out of all the classes crusaders are the only ones where our endline in our "class" tree is pretty much not required and rarely specced into. If this was changed into a DoT with even a small HoT or a ward trigger chance... for 4 AAs the amount of benefit it gives is either zero due to Wards - can't heal what damage you do not take Tank group - if you group is doing less damage then when you need it most the heal given is corespondily less Stuns/KBs/Status effect - most of the time you will need this emergancy heal is if you/your group is unable to keep you alive which is kind of reversing where you gain the most benefit from (you need to DPS to trigegr the heal) Can be stupidly Overpowered at times - put in a full DPS group tanking a mob you shouldn't and the heals given are massive. In short... Mercy and Focus are complete pally abilities (and not very good ones at that) and Crusader's Faith is more an SK ability... something which woudl have made a long more sense on the endline of the SK tree rather than the crusader tree. Arch Heal - the heal it gives is laughable, more power, slower to cast, worse reuse and doesn;t heal as much as the standard "heal" given to all pallys at earlier levels. This shoudl be altered to improve the healing ability of the pally in general or its healing power significantly increased. the 16% potency from crusader tree seems like a good replacement here. Devs: You have to really start from the ground up and realise what a pallys place in our guilds is all about and reorgnise our eventire defensive spell list to realise this. quick "fixes" do nothing except show you have no real understanding of the class as a whole and we are eager to try and assist you in this reguard. If you do not want us healign so much but throw items aroun with abilities which heal for more than our current spell list it sends the wrong message. We are a tank that heals.... but we cannot do any real degree. - Inncidentally thanks to SoE Runnyeye has been unplayable for a couple of days ... and I'm still better
There are +Mit buffs on almost every piece of defensive gear, there are stoneskin procs out there (not this expansion that I've seen though), EVERY fighter class can even get the Guardian mythical buff. Not sure if you've noticed but I've been comparing to Guardians the whole time, since we're the other defensive tank. We have zero healing capability, the only heal we do have is our deathsave on a long recast. I don't care what the other plate tanks have, I don't see them asking for more defense/offense recently. I do however see Paladins asking for yet more things to have over Guardians. In other Threads Paladins/Zerks/SKs have said how good stoneskins are and how much damage a Guardian can avoid with them and how it makes us the best defensive tank.. and yet in this thread Paladins are asking for them and not willing to give anything up for it! There are ways to fix your heals without OPing them in areas, concentrate on that sicne that's what Xelgad said he'd be doing, rather than taking every ability the other plate tanks have. A Large reactive of a 50% heal will pop you back up to high health after an AOE, stopping the random DA's after them from killing you. True a lot of the time it won't heal for much, but the times you need it to heal for a decent amount it will do, this is the same for stoneskins. Most of them time my stoneskins absorb crappy little amounts of damage, but the times I need them to take the big hits they can be more or less relied upon. Group AOE avoidance Guardians recently asked for and we where refused it because it was un-balanced. Instead we can AOE avoid fighters only, why should Paladins suddenly get it?
A 50% heal is a lot different to a heal 50% worth of incoming damage.. a LOT different; currently as it stands our "big heal" rarely heals us for more than 30% damage. Currently the issue is.. and has been since the massive nerf is our healing ability has dropped so much that gear procs completly overwrite our own healing potential and whilst guards hasve no incombat heals with the gear you heal for close to what a pally does. SKs and Zerkers with their own (working) heals heal for more. You may not consider 400-500hps much at all... but when you consider that pallys now are hitting 700-800 hps in raids the prospect is laughable given the amount of incoming damage experianced by tanks. So claiming that we are only after your abilities and guardian abilities shoudl be sacred is a complete falicy as to be quite frank our core abilities have been shipped out to every tank... including yourself with your 15% transfer... about as useful as ours is in raids these days as you are no doubt finding out To be quite frank... pallys have *never* asked for DPS or more damage... LC is a "flavour of the expansion" and I doubt the damage portion will remain once the new expansion goes live. Herrectics shodul have *never* been given to a pally... pallys got a DPS buff as our endline.. the other 3 plate tanks got a defensive ability... how screwed up is that? what Xeladude said was increase recasts increase power of heals... so less spam more active healing which works in raids.however as it stands this is "helpful" but our heals will still be more of a gimic than actually assiting us in dealing with incoming damage. Not only that the heal spikes a pally willbe able to generate will be called in for major nerfing in short order if you want them to be effective on raids. And if you don;t want us to heal as much as we do the *only* way to scale healing power into raids without making it Oped in Herioc/Solo is to consider alternatives: - longer duraitons - longer recasts - buffs/small heals over large directs heals - Stoneskin like "effects such as large reactive heals <----- that will be the best option for all pallys... you get to kepe yoru precious stoneskins (of which all tanks receive apart from pallys fyi!) and we get to keep our healing.
Not willing to give anything up? Except for our entire suite of defensive spells and matching aa abilities to enhance them, of course.
F**kit, I honestly can't be bothered, if you guys think it's balanced to have all these stoneskins/reductions/massive hots slapped onto your heals, then fine, keep asking for them. The ONLY thing a Guardian does better than other tanks is their capability of handling predictable spike damage, asking for the same for Paladins while keeping your superior DPS/Hate and not loosing anything in any other area is asking to be OP and I'm relatively sure it will never happen, your best bet is to get the heals fixed in a way they are useful without picking and choosing abilities from other tanks as it suites you. things like: A 15k+ Ward on a 50sec/1 min timer. Large reactive heals on large timers. Heals that heal for a % Damage taken. Heals that heal for a % of your health. Are more likely to actually be put in game. If you honestly think SOE is going to change the way the whole Paladin class works when they are incapable of fixing the majority of bugs then you're obviously playing a different game. Ohh and the cheapening of Paladin abilities with Stonewill? EVERY Tank can get the reactive hate Guardians used to be the only ones capable of with "Hold the Line" now because of UM procs. EVERY Tank can get Guardian like Mitigation with the current gear. Gear has, and always will effect the potential of some classes/abilities while cheapening others, and it will continue to do so from expansion to expansion.
Soul_Dreamer wrote: We're not asking for OPed.. .we're asking for when we click our heal buttons it does more than reduce our power bar; massviely increasing heals reguardless of recast will not do anythgin excepot for subject ourselves to new nerfs. As it stands right now we want our heals to HEAL us when we cast them; our heals are a DIRECT heal say 3.7k Paladin takes damage and we cast the heal... one of many things happen: Heal is interupted, and recast too late Heal is cast, but healers get their first, heals for 0 Heal is cast, but interupted, and interupted, Healers take care of it Heal is cast but Stun/interupt effect occurs pally is not able to ontinue casting Heal is started ot cast... pally dies. base cast time is 1.5 base recast is 8s.... put two pallys side by side, one tanking one not the pally tanking could still be trying to cast whlist the second has cast and gotten it back on recast. This ability is one of our standard core abilities which is there so pallys can heal. This ability annot be used whilst tanking... so lets look at the actual numbers and play current 1.5s cast 8s recast 3.7k heal Proposed 1.5s cast 80s recast 20s duration if Paladin is hit for over 50% of their max health * Heal caster for 3,700 The second one heals 10x less than the first, but is 10x more useful in a tanking role. Bare in mind that heals mean we still actually have to TAKE the damage in the first place... a 50k nuke will just be turned into a 50k-3.7k damage nuke or 46k damage and a high chance we will die from it. A stoneskin means 50k is reduced to 0k and survive. We're asking for our HEALS to be sorted, looked at and tweated so they are USEFUL... not to be overpowered.. but so they can ASSIST us in our tanking ability.. not replace it or other tanks with "ubbah abilities"; we already HAVE these abilities... its just getting to use them without the above problems presenting each other means we spend too much time casting and a lot of luck.
all i want is for my heals to not be scaled to heroic content.... its getting ridiculous... btw there aren't your stoneskins are 99% less effective debuffs that names have but there are heal ones... also i would like for guards typically ones that aren't killing anything worth mentioning to possibly tone their loudness down a bit :/
Jeal@Unrest wrote: So because the guild I've lead for 5 years isn't killing Wing 3 of UD or 4 Rune Theer my opinion isn't valid? Does that include everyone else as well, surely if a Paladin isn't killing these mobs they don't know what they need either (By your logic)? The balance must really change between the tanks for those 8 mobs, it's a shame you've tanked and killed them all with your current ability set. Kinda shows that it is possible you just want it easier, no?
Soul_Dreamer wrote: Don't let Jeal bother you he only has his spot because of his class and his relation to the leader(s). But obviously he has to have some what of a clue I would think but by some of his post IDK. The truth is the people most likely to know the a class the best is the person that isn't in the perfect guild to have the perfect group makeup. These people have to know how to get every bit out of their classes.
Toranx@Crushbone wrote: He doesn't bother me and I've never said he doesn't know how to play his class, unlike him I'm not making assumptions about people I know nothing about. Just his logic of who gets to have an opinion and who doesn't is utter BS, he's just showing how flawed this whole argument is. Can a Paladin successfully tank and kill ALL content in game? Yes. Does a Paladin do this with substantially more Hate and DPS than the other defensive tank? Yes. Does a Paladin have a better ability set for Heroic content than the other defensive tank? Yes. Does a Paladin have a better ability set for Solo content than the other defensive tank? Yes. Does a Paladin have a decent ability set for raid content across tanking roles?Yes. Does this show Paladins needs more defensive abilities, or substantial increases to the abilities they have?NO!
Soul_Dreamer wrote: Can a Paladin successfully tank and kill ALL content in game? Yes. Can every other tank? Yes! Does a Paladin do this with substantially more Hate and DPS than the other defensive tank? Yes. Full def gear this is an outright lie; unless one of two things are happening "AoE content" or Massive Spell damage; when a pally really needs to survive the differance in hate/dps is minimal at best. Does a Paladin have a better ability set for Heroic content than the other defensive tank? Yes. Last I cheked guards has an ability to improve their hate gain, reduce the entire groups hate gain and also have a hate transfer... if you can;t tank herioc stuff then quite frankly u suck Does a Paladin have a better ability set for Solo content than the other defensive tank? Yes. Can Guardians still solo decently with ward/heal proc gear on YES! this discussion has never been about soling... the other tanks have an easier time of it than pallys... yes we can solo some decent stuff but 90% of our heals (stonewill) are onex you can gain yourself.. and if anything its not exactly "fast"... 20-30min kills with a single mistake causing death. Does a Paladin have a decent ability set for raid content across tanking roles?Yes. Can other tanks both OT and MT? YES! Does this show Paladins needs more defensive abilities, or substantial increases to the abilities they have?NO! Can Pallys USE all the abilities they have been given to tank NO! The point is we *have* the defensive abilities... our heals... just they are... you know... useless. If stoneskins were reduced to only prevent 20% of the incoming damage instead of 100% you'll soon see what we have to deal with EVERY DAY and you'll stop your moaning. We have our heals balanced to solo (they have a HUGE power cost and tbh untill you're level 80+ and have the right gear that issue never goes away. They can be interupted consistantly; the more mobs and the harder the content.. in fact the more you NEED to use them the less you are able to use them and they heal for a pathetic amount. We want our heals to be ADJUSTED... so they are valid from solo > raid rather than being usless in all 3. Remember taunts how they used not to be able to crit etc.... and how useless they were and "not with bothign with"... well... that is how our heals are now again.
Soul_Dreamer wrote: Guess the same argument applies to the Guard forum where in your hypocrit way you do the exact same thing as here, except instead of asking for more defensive abilities as the most defensive tank you and your buddies seem to think it is alright to ask for more DPS while still maintaining superior pro-active damage avoiding abilities. I mean a Guard MTs ALL of the raid content after all. And Toranx that is a good excuse you have there to not be good at your own class. The fact is top guilds recruit top players, ones that are very competent at what they do. And tanks especially have to be good to stick around. You not being in one is proof enough of that.
You have killed the raid mobs with your current abilities therefore paladins are capable MT's. Guardians have 4 buffs that are either totally useless or kill us outright that are suppose to be class defining. You have heals that are marginal in terms of usefulness. They still heal, just not for what you want them to be. I'll trade my short term Guardian buffs that are 100% useless or kill me for your heals ANYDAY. Just let me know when/where to meet you to make the swap. You need to remmember two things: 1. Your capable of doing what is needed to be done. 2. Everbody else has broken crap just like you. Asking for something that is broken to be fixed is what I'd expect to see on any class forum. Comparing it to an ability that you can get yourself which you 100% know will only result in a nerf to that ability is just plain stupid. Again, you can do your job and in MOST cases greatly exceed the abilities of other fighetrs. As soon as you and all the other Paladins in the game come to a consensus on what ability you want reduced to allow for higher heals then I suspect the Developes will listen.
So you're saying that because other people have broken "crap" that Pallys shouldn't try and get their issues sorted? Rather than coming on this forum and kicking up stink why not try and get your own stuff sorted? Be proactive on your own class rather than trying to get others beaten down. Remember that because the top Pally's can do it doesn't mean that everyone else can. There seems to be the idea that because a few can do it with full gear and a practiced raid force that everyone else can. I think that is very short sighted. The idea's that have been put up here are not game breaking and keep in the current idea for Pallies. This is not a tit4tat thing this is a request to keep the rose tinted glasses off and not assume that you know about the majority of the class. If you want change go to your board and put forward your idea's make them reasonable and say why. Don't try and kill other peoples play experience because yours isn't what you want.
