Demonstration of FaithPower: 188 Casting : 1.38s Recast: 13.2s Duration: 24sWards target against 4594 points of all damage This is with Potency 77% and Ability Mod of 1,821; not enhanced with AA. Stonewill IIIOn any combat or Spell Attack this may cast Stonewill on Caster. Triggers about 1.4 times per minuteWhen Damaged in Combat This spell has has a 7% chance to cast Stonewill on CasterWards Caster against 2000 points of all damage. Two guesses which is my primary source of healing?.. yep you guessed it: Stonewill; in my "tank gear" or at least my defensive gear I have at this point 3 SW3 items and 1 SW2 Item. Tank items are awash with the Stonewill proc... the fighter charm from Master Yael instead of having some cool and interesting proc/effect on ... gives... Stonewill III In raids where you are hit but not regually I can expect this ward to be up on me all the time even just a single item with the two separate wasy to proc it I can be expected to be warded for 2x2000 damage with ease in one min; generally more. In short... one SINGLE PROC wards me for almost the same amount as one of what should be our defining defensive spell... except for this item doesn't require casting (which can be interupted) and doesn't interupt the flow of our personal DPS (hate) Yes I understand that I could cast the ward 3 times in the same duration, but with interupts/stuns and sother fun things happening in raids trying to cast this ward whilst tanking is a joke as its near imposible to do so. I'm not saying Stonewill should be nerfed... this is just one point of many which shows how far our healing power has gone from useful to not even worth casting beyond incoming and now is outclassed by the items we choose to wear. We can barely cast our ward whlist tanking due to stuns/interupts etc and its gone within a single hit thast was BEFORE the heal nerf (and yes it was a sigificant nerf) and now items heal for more and are MUCH easier to use. Can we PLEASE have some redname feedback about what you are doing with the paladin class?
It shouldn't be more, because... Your a cleric/fight mix, not a sham/fighter mix. Just saying... But good luck getting a response Boil.
If they don't want fighters being able to heal why then is it given away so freely on items? I woudl rather *all* of our heals with the exception of lay on hands to be reworked into "heal like effects" and smaller heal amounts but with scaling built into them so they are effective in raids as well as solo adding say stoneskins, damage reduction, mitigation increase, health increases, ability which increases the healing power of heals cast on the paladin, ability to protect the group from AoEs, short term immunity to ripostes/strikethroughs/interupts The list goes on... if you don't want fighters to heal then why do we even HAVE heals and why are items such as Stonewill so abundant. in fact the more mobs I have on me currently the harder I am to kill thanks to SW procs. You have trivilised the healing power of a paladin as a "but you dont have x y and z because you have heals... andf then make the heals completly redundant.
I was mainly just making a play on the classes your class was derived from, wasn't really being serious. Now that you bring it up, warding is the absorption of inc damage, it really isn't healing the damage taken and it is the realm of the showman. Being you are a Paladin (cleric/warrior mix) you should have heals but no wards. Now should you get a reduced stone skin from your warrior side, yea i think you should being you get some healing from the cleric side. But then you get wards so there is your's defunct stone skin. Honestly I think they could bump you guys healing up a tad and your classes would be perfect. But then I don't play one to the level most of you do so I just have a perceived idea of the class from watching some of you play the class. Just like you have a perceived idea how other tank classes work.
Couldnt finish my earlier post, had to head to work. But anyways the other night doing kenda/pendis hard mode with all points into our wards and in a 16 or so minute fight i took the average of what our self ward actually did. Casting the ward every time it was up, whether i needed it or not, and it averaged a whopping 2322. Yeah thats a defensive feature....Stonewill is pretty much better than all our heals combined.
Stonewill is the bomb, in the MT group it's usually 4th to 6th place on all my incoming heals depending on the fight and how many items I have on. So just for a point of perspective here, I have two full time healers healing the bejesus out of me, and it's beating most of their secondary heals. It's a ward and gets resolved first on incoming damage, so it's going to be up there. However it's random you can't bank on it, you can't say cast it before a huge nasty AOE is about to hit you like you can Demonstration of Faith. You can however throw a bunch of Stonewill pieces on and pull a bunch of mobs and solo the library, your DPS just sucks. Oh wait I can do with that Pally no problem without the SW pieces on, well thats more of a guardian strat I guess.
Paladins simply want their heals to be worth casting, not replace the healer. As it currently stands, their heals at level 90 even with the epic weapon proc up barely makes a half of a mostly if not full apprentice level spells 6 level lower healer in treasured gear with less than 50 aas. Raising all your mitigations by a mere 100 will almost assuredly net in a better survivability result than raising your healing output by even 10% potency. Even cycle stunning a heroic mob that doesn't get stunned easily results in far better survivability than casting paladin heals. I simply want my heals to do something other than 50%-75% of the time hurting my performance.
ReverendPaqo wrote: I'm sorry I'm confused here, why are you comparing yourself to a healer in treasured gear? I thought we were talking tanks and stonewill items. If you want to compare yourself to healer go for it I guess, and then compare yourself to wizard because you have crappy nukes compared to them too, and I'm pretty sure your CA's are totally lacking compared to an assassin. Or I know how about comparing yourself to something thats comparable, like say other tanks? I know your stuck in a my life sucks type thing here, but I think the 10% potency is going to help more than 100 mitigation, your welcome to do the math tho, please show your work. However I'll take a cursory glance at it. If we're looking at one hit say a 20k hit from an epic mob, with 100 extra mitigation which I think would add about .2% mitigation would come out at 40 extra HP's mitigated. Demonstration of faith with the stats Boli32 posted bolstered by an extra 10% potency would give an additional 459 HPs meaning that after 11 hits of 20k the damage mitigated would catch up to the heal. So I guess it comes down to what comes first the recast on demonstration of faith or the 11 hits, of course you still have other heals you can cast here too with their increased stats. If we're talking heroic mobs that number mitigated gets a lot smaller and the number of hits required increases. Generally tho tanks want more mitigation, but if it was my pally I would choose the 10% potency. Not getting hit by a mob is always going to be better than a heal, so why you wouldn't you stun a mob (more so because most stuns have a damage component as well).
Boli32 wrote: Just LOL, want anything else, after you finished wanting the majority of the Warriors defensive skills, how about you ask for the DPS of an assassin at the same time.
The problem(s) with our ward is its gone in 1 hit, even in herioc zones - pre nerf it lasted a touch longer but this has always been a problem. If it was a reduced ward but gave a defensive buff for its entire duration it woudl be worth casting as.. its cast speed is appauling when taken into account the fact we are TANKING mobs. You have to not only deal with being hit (intrupts), status effects on the tank (stifles/dazes/stuns) but also every AoE it seems has an interupt or KB portion meaning attempting to cast it often takes 2 or 3 attempts Which bring me back up to the stonewill items... the only way DoF wins out over SW items is the ability to pre-cast it... once combat has ben initiated you can expect even a single SW item to outheal what is meant to be our primary defensive buff. This is made even more apparant on raids and in heriocs zones pulling large amounts of mobs. I have never wanted to be compared to a "healer" or anything; we are a tank which uses heals in our defensive abilities... the fact those defensive abilitys are now outstripepd by Stonewill Items which *any* tank can obtain pretty much nulifies paladins defensive abilities.
Soul_Dreamer wrote: All of which were EXAMPLES of what our heals could be changed into: for example instead of "wards for 3000" It changes to "wards for 200" heals caster for 20-50 damage every 4 seconds" caster is immunte to interupts for the duration. reduce the healing power, increase the recast make them cast faster but add effects which SCALE into epic content rather than useless solo/group/raid
Get Stonewill items yourself and now you have both. You still do x2 the DPS of a Guardian and take a hit just like they do. Just becasue you have heal spells doesn't mean they have to be effective. You take a hit like a warrior (or better). You DPS like a scout (or better) and you want to heal like a healer? Really?
You seriously do not get the point do you? I have Stonewill items, 4 of them actually and SoE keeps finding more places to put the ward proc on. I can spam my ward as much as possible on fights but it does LESS heals/min over the course of a fight significantly less and all it does is reduce my own DPS (hate) as well as cause a lot of frustration in attempting to cast it and become interupted 9/10. Oh and if a pally can take hits bettrr than a guard then the guard is a very bad player. We are a class whcih is DESIGNED around, indeed... slated to be a tank with healing abiilties which "make up the difference" between ourselves and warrior based tanking. Somethign which is mentioned time and time again whilst we search for balance you throw it back in our face that "yeah but you heal"... well this is me and the unspoken majority of pallys who are saying half our abilities are now broken/useless so no.. we do not "heal"; and stonewill items are more effective and provide more healing power than any one of our class spells. YOU have the best of both worlds now - you have your own defensive abilities, and lots of them and stonewill items which means you also gain the "healing power" of the paladin. When your entire class "niche" is completly replaced by a single item/proc it is entirely frustrating as devs have admited our heals are BROKEN but have done nothign towards fixing them. In short: Stonewill item procs >>>>> paladin heals
I get the point all right. I actually agree that Paladins need some adjustment to your heals. The FACT still remains that Crusaders are the primary choice for MT due to the abilities available to each of those classes. If your already the best choice for MT then the only way I personally would agree (and yes I know, me agreeing means nothing at all) to have your heals uped is to take away some DPS or survivability. Fair is Fair. You can't look at heals as heals alone. You keep trying to do that and it's an irrelevant argument. You have to look at the total package when your considering how to balance a class. I don't agree how they balanced Paladins but they did try to look at the sum of all abilities and try to get it closer to the average for Paladins.
Wasuna wrote: First off (Red): That statement is utter bull. Select fights a crusader MAY do 2X the dmg of a guard. This is just because of LC and nothing more. However if you look at ZW parses for both paladins and guardians they are fairly comparable. Even more so now that they changed how double attack works with offhand. Vast majority of mobs (and even a lot of nameds), if a guardian is not tanking in full dps (duel weilding) they are hurting themselves. So again no Paladins as a whole zone wides do NOT parse 2X that of a guard. And no we dont dps like a scout. Only agian certain fights where LC gives big numbers do you see the "high" dps of a crusader. Second (Blue): What way are you considering the "taking a hit". Are you talking about sustained damage, if so every tank class (including brawlers) "takes a hit like they do". If you are talking about spike damage (which is where paladins heals are USED for). Than no way in hell do we take a hit like a guardian. A guardian has much higher survivability in the spike damage department than a paladin, even taking in account for the myth buff. This is because all the guardians prevention of damage scales for raid content and can take big hits better than a paladin prewarding for an aoe. Spike damage is the area we want our heals improved to scale for. For general sustained damage no tank needs to cover heals for that because the healers should easily keep you up. However for spike damage we have no way to offset it really. It was ment to be our heals, but at the moment our heals are so pitiful that it doesnt offset it at all.
Boli32 wrote: Lol, you are clearly the delusional one here, or maybe you just don't really understand the mechanics of the game here. Lets look to see who actually will take the bigger hit here. First off mitigation is a plenty in this expansion and the mitigation advantage of the warrior is very small, every tank is going past the cap of mitigation, but mitigation is contested so for the higher level mobs you still need more... BUT, mitigation is on a diminishing curve, so while the warrior can get about 1000 (2500 with temp buffs) extra mitigation this is all the top end of the diminishing returns curve. However I'm feeling generous so lets say the guard has 75% mitigation vs the epic mob and the pally has 70%. Guardian takes a 50k hit mitigates 75% of it resulting in a 12.5k hit, with the guard mythical of 5% damage reduction which is based on a proc thats up half the time, we'll give the guard 2.5% damage reduction. So the guard damage reduces the 12.5k by 2.5% resulting in the total damage of 12187.5 damage taken. Thats it, he's done theres nothing else happening. Pally takes a 50k hit mitigates 70% of it resulting in a 15k hit, pally mythical gives 10% damage reduction reducing it to 13.5k hit then a 10% heal back from the mythical resulting in 12150 damage taken. Right there the pally took less damage on the same hit, and I was incredibly generous on the mitigation spread which is more like 1% not 5%. Now with the pally he's still not done, he has a self regenerating ward for 300 - 350 and the aura of leadership for 875 ish, both which may be up or not be up. Now kick in all the healing that the pally can do. More so the guards physical mitigation advantage is completely lost when we're talking all other types of damage, that advantage then goes to the crusader as they can have an additional 2k of elemental, nox and arcane mitigation. So lets mitigate a non physical hit shall we? Use the same numbers but reverse them, the guard at 70% mitigation and pally at 75%, quick math same numbers and guard takes on a 50k arcane hit 14625 damage and pally takes 10,125 damage. Raid wise all heals count, all wards count and they all work together, this is why your shammy and templar both are super high on the heal parse. While the heal can't 100% prevent all your incoming damage (which it can on a smaller hit, as not all hits are 50k) it works with all the other incoming heals. I have a pally who's raid geared and I have bezerker and a monk who are also raid geared. My Zerker has crazy gear compared to the pally, however with the Pally I can duo far more heroic zones with non healer friends than I can on the zerker or the monk bar none, no comparison, not even close, the "pathetic heals" keep me and my partner alive. The pally is a tank, not a healer and it's abilities are there to help mitigate damage not to save the group. The job of a tank is to hold agro and mitigate incoming damage everything after that is gravy, this is the design of the class and it's very successful at being this. I would like anyone to show me where the devs have stated the design of the Paladin class was for a pally to walk into a moderate to hard heroic zone and solo heal a group through it eliminating the need for healers, because before the heal crit nerf thats exactly what was happening. This QQ'ing about stonewill is asinine it's just another tool that tanks use to mitigate the impact of incoming damage, because other tanks can use it does nothing to diminish your ability to use it and your ability to use your heals, if a guard has 4 pieces of stonewill and you have 4 pieces of stonewill then the guard is still taking more damage! Once you hit the mitigation cap the only place you can go is damage reduction and healing abilities, since both classes are at the cap why can't they get some healing abilities? You certainly got mitigation. In short: if you can't see any advantage of augmenting your 4.5k heal with a 2k proc then your beyond help...
Boli32 wrote: I always get a chuckle out of posts like this. Dont be naive, you are effectively asking for Stonewill to be nerfed. You've been playing this game long enough, you should know that when you write something like this, the first instinct for the devs is "yeah, that does seem like Stonewill is overpowered..." and not "we should completely revamp the healing functionality of the Paladin class..." Which do you think is the path of least resistance? Edit: And if, as a result or just chance, they do end up nerfing Stonewill in the near future, well... what happened to that defiler who got Sacrifice nerfed wasn't pleasant. On the upside, you'll get your very own RaR thread and they do sell name change potions and server transfer tokens on the Marketplace.
no.. I'm saying that nerfing healing on tanks and then giving stonewill 3 procs on EVERYTHING is just stupid. And having items which outheals our healing spells is quite frankly rediculous; and the paladins HEALS should be adjusted! - SW items are a good idea... if a tad overpowered at times to assist in soloing for all tanks... where thjey fail is being so much more powerful than abilities we have which are at most a gimic in raids; stupidly power expensive solo, next to useless in groups and are regually interupted. oh and for the above posters... if you have never EVER tried to cast a ward whlist tanking you'll understand exactly what is meant... and our heals are meant to deal with incoming damage.. but instead of say: guardian sphere (erm the 25% chance ot proc stoneskins on group) we get a group heal, which heals for 3k so we have a choice between having the chance to stop damage completely.... or a 3k heal which quite franky is laughable when your group have 30k health a piece; and most of the time the healers get there first meaning all you just did was waste power.
An option then would be to make at least some abilities un-interuptable. I'm all for Balance but even in their current state Paladins aren't underpowered, Paladins take less sustained damage than other tanks, have great DPS and hate control and are one of the prime choices for the MT AND OT slots. If you really want more damage preventing abilities to handle spikes, or you want the ones you have currently to be improved then you need to loose things in some areas. Be it DPS, Agro control or some of the sustained damage absorption. I've got a low end Paladin which doesn't really count but I know how much of a ballache it used to be soloing on my Inquisitor before Steadfast was around, the interupts were painful to say the least. FYI. Stone Sphere will often do nothing, when I use it I see no noticable difference to the group, you've also decided to omit that the recast on your group heal is under 10 seconds, but the recast of Stone Sphere is 3 minutes and lasts 30 seconds. Then what about your group regenerating ward you can spec for? You CANNOT just compare one ability to another, especially when you aren't even comparing everything about that one ability.
