Necros have issues running out of mana even continually nuking anyway if they spend some time maintaining their power. And that spell, usable by both summoners, could be used to rip the aggro of anything really., since its a 10 second reuse rescue in essance. But still, if a wizard goes OOP from root/nuke before the mob is dead, it is a mob with epic mob health, and should be quite resiliant to roots anyway. Wizzies can basically threeshot any mob they can solo.
I personally think it's just fine the way it is. The ONLY time a necro should need to FD is when the entire grp/raid is going down. At least that is the only time I ever have to use it. If you piss off the mob too much before a wipe, then you did something wrong, or your grp/raid did something terribly wrong. We aren't a monk/bruiser who can FD every 5 secs because its just funny to see them fall down. And the 100% is so much better than a Monk's group FD because the mob will move right to the necro and start wailing on you while you are trying to cancel the monk fd and cast your own. ...imho...
[p]if you arent taking agro from an epic mob your slaking sir. yes there are ways for a tank to hold agro but with 10 or so good dps classes putting up good dps no way the tank can save his reiforcement for you the necro.[/p][p] [/p]
What? I never said we wouldn't generate 'hate', but to pull aggro completely from the main tank group... no. I'm sorry, but I keep seeing alot of people thinking that a necro is supposed to be able to peel a mob off a tank like a 'Sin using a Spike on the first short or some junk like that. I didn't say anything like that. I parse just fine in raids w/out pulling aggro off the MT, so I'm doing nothing wrong IMO.
If I remember right, the Necro FD performs just like the monk/bruiser versions, except we have it at 100% to their chance of failure. Neither wipes agro or changes agro position. The difference is, that the Necro can continue to do damage while FD'd, while the other classes cannot. So there is the image that they change or lose agro and can stand right back up.
i apologice .. im am a dps necro and i forget some necros like to do other things in encounters.. but since your not a dps necro.. then maybe you shouldent post about dps issues such as: ripping a mob that's 35 meeters away off a tank(this takes allot of hate).
Whatever. You obviously think quite highly of yourself, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm not going to argue the matter because it's pointless. I'm no longer DPS spec'd because it got boring and I wanted to tryout some of the other builds since I don't use my necro as main any longer. If you constantly pull epic mobs, then fine have fun.
This is perhaps one of the silliest things I've read, if your goal is to strip agro from the tank you must be really popular on raids when the mob runs back to you and blows off its AOE in the middle of the casters and healers. I'm sorry but one of my favorite quotes is "just because you CAN take agro from the tank doesn't mean you SHOULD" if your personal DPS is more important than the raids' success maybe you should go respec for soloing
[p]Yes, having temp pets not dumping 100% agro to the caster, would be nice.... but realistically this is like a warlock not taking Agro fom the mega DoT that just expired... At least we do get a slight repreive, as the hate transfer for our pets doesn't occur until after the pets die.[/p][p] As far as FD is concerned it'd be moronic to have FD be a mem wipe... We're a DPS caster class with limited means to lower our agro... that's one of the drawbacks to being a ranged DPS class... But I suppose you could argue that there should be no drawbacks, just let us kill everything without consequence... No thanks.[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
[p] Correction... if you were a DPS Necro, then you'd know how NOT to pull agro from the tank... as this is NOT how to play your class properly. If all you know how to do is click buttons, then you're just a solo necro yourself. Be it Raiding or just grouping... a good DPS Necro knows how to push out as much DPS as they can WITHOUT taking agro away from the MT and jeopardizing their group/raid's success. [/p][p]That said.... todays high level raid/group tanks CAN be configured to hold agro through pretty dang much anything. Esp if LB/MB people are communicating their casts and agro is being transfered into the MT... Ping Ponging is VERY unpopular in a raid.[/p]
[p]uhmmm i dont take agro coz it's my goal i pull agro coz im killing the mob.. the faster i kill that mob the less time you have to tank it and healers have to heal it, that is how you beat encounters. theres guilds out there that do just fine sub par dps.. and all the power to them.. but fact is a good dps necro builds LOTS of hate and all classes have deagro why shouldent we? i dont think giving us some hate management would be so awfull all the other top dps classes have it.[/p]
[p]im there to kill the mob .. other then not killing the mob there is no other way to not pull agro.. i have no clue [I cannot control my vocabulary] your talking about .. other than making a macro in raid to warn tak of life burn.. theres nothing any necro can do casting wise not to pull agro.. exept for not cast.. [/p][p] [/p][p]edit. point of the discousion necros should maybe get some form of deagro.. [/p]
[p]Everyone knows a necro not puting out amazing dps while also giving out hearts and rezing is a wasted slot and an embarrassment to the necro community. As much as I hate lifeburn being available for even some slackasses to pull good numbers you better beleive I won't be dumb enough to not abuse it to maximize my necro's dps potential. That said, lifeburn in and of itself is not a guaranteed aggro stealer, unless your tank is horribly geared/skilled or your raid group setups are sad (aggro transfers on the tank and deaggro's on you). Our dps is split between our pet and us, not exactly a 50 - 50 split, but it's very much enough to keep us alive thru any encounter...which is why many high end raiding necros prefer bloodpact as it keeps the pet alive and that aggro balance in place, and a dead pet equates to lower overall dps. Necros do not need another form of deaggro, this class has been dumbed down more than enough with /pet ranged, lifeburn, and a faster recast fd.[/p][p] Also before trying to school others it's best to show where you're coming from...i.e. credentials, I sure as heck don't follow more than half the crap spewed on this forum these days...[/p]
Sciomar@Unrest wrote: i totaly agree with you lifeburn has created a influx of reatard summoners .. having said that i ben pulling agro off tanks since before lifeburn and yes it was in part do to pets dieing, and that's why i use to raid with my tank pet since the STA line had the only AoE protection and agro transfer but now blood pacts is the way to go.. i let my post do the talking not my credentials if you like it and can take from it and become a better summoner awsome if you dont.. we can fight.. i love arguing =P
Dav... you really don't know as much as you think you do... The Tank's JOB is to get hit. The Healer's JOB is to heal. If you're doing ANYTHINg to come between the mob and the Tank or the Healer and the tank, YOU ARE WRONG. In a good group, the healer(s) should not have to spend their time healing a cloth wearer. The role of GOOD DPS is to provide as much DPS as possible WITHOUT causing the healers to have to take their attention off of the MT, and without the MT loosing agro... one directed AoE thats aimed at the rest of the raid because you had an ego trip can ruin the efforts of the other people in your raid that are actually trying to get it right. That said, necros CAN dish out tons of DPS without drawing agro BECAUSE WE HAVE BUILT IN AGRO MANAGEMENT. We're by our very design less agro prone than other DPS classes. Our damage comes in smaller chunks and from varrying sources. Due to the way agro works in this game, that alone helps reduce our agro burden. Our full time pets not transfering agro to us unless they die... that helps us control our agro... Compared to a nuking class who's only way to reduce agro is to not do damage... yes there are some agro reducing spells, but that's to balance with our innate agro control. Just to re-enforce my point... If you're in a raid and the MT is havinga little trouble holding agro... You are MUCH better off NOT casting and letting your DPS suffer. Your roll (regardless of anything else) is to help the raid's cause and promote success. In most raids you can take 30 minutes to kill a mob, as long as you eventually kill it... As long as the tank holds agro and the healers can keep the MT alive, DPS hardly matters at all... Ubber DPS with a dead tank/healers = failure in all cases. Heck if I see a healer at 75% hpts, I stop what I'm doing and heal him! If I see a healer, or anyone else for that matter, die I rez them unless there's a bard around. Bottom line is, I play whatever role is neccessary to get the job done, and the greatness of the necro class is that we can help a raid succeed in so many ways.
Zald wrote: zal i have a tank and healer and when i tank my job is to control the mob and when i heal my job is not let the tank OR my group die. having said that, on my necro i wont tanke agro till the mob is at 30% or less for the most part, im not taking agro because im ego' ing im taking agro coz im doing my job of kiling mobs. you obiously dont play tanks or healers OR you would konw how important DPS is. yes you can grind some lame *** mobs down with sub par dps and OK tanks/ healers but if you plan on taking down anything that's actually fun you need good DPS. this thred started about FD not having any type of deagro and i feel necros should have something to help dispell hate. evrytime your main pet dies you have hate dump, you mentiond that.. you dint mention/know that evrytime our limited pet's die it to dumps agro on the summoner too. im not saying necros that choose to be more utilty than dps are sub-par or a wasted slot, im saying that necros that choose to dps should get some sort of deagro. maybe instead of parry add deagro to the STR line who konws.. ps. i also heal, debuff and use my temporary buffs on people. more than one time i ben the primary healer for my groups troub in a raid coz the healer wants to slack, dps or only heal the main tank ALL ELSE manage agro or die!
I didn't directly include limited pets, but the same applies... Nuking classes inherit their agro immediately upon cast. Even with our limited pets, we delay inheriting any of the damage agro they build up until after they die. This is a benefit. And BTW, I have a raid Inquisitor... I totally understand the concept of healing... I personally don't play tanks... My point in its entirety is that if you're pulling agro then you can and should watch it because in a raid the goal is to kill the mob, and faster != better in most cases. When you're on the last 5%... yeah you can usually gut through whatever ping ponging will occur, but in 90% of the raid mobs I've been part of killing, a ping ponging 30% alive raid boss mob will whipe a raid if you can't control it fast enough. I've been in raids where overzealous mages were asked to flat out leave if they couldn't listen and control their agro better.
I tend to agree that making a FD be a total aggro wipe instead of a suspend would be overpowered... even though for a while after I got it I indeed believed that was the case. On the other had, I have been eaten more times than I can count by getting up too soon after a FD and what I thought had been suitable time for my tank or even pet to regain aggro. I think a good compromise would be to add a decent (not too big, not too small) deaggro to the spell, or maybe even bump you down one level in the hate list like the mage's Claymore proc does. We don't have a deaggro of any kind, although with the hate normally split between us and our pets we tend to pull aggro less than other dps classes, so this would not be replacing an existing ability. I tend to use the tinkered deaggro clicky when soloing, and find it does a good job to let my pet get aggro back from a mob that has turned on me... so this would probably be a pretty good amount to add to it. (How much deaggro does that clicky do, anyway...?)
I have just recently hit level 70 with my necro. And, I played a Mage and a Necro in EQ1. The way I see it, is my job is always the same as it was......hit the mob with as much as I can, WITHOUT pulling aggro. This is where the skill comes into playing the class. What you can and cannot do varies by group, tank, mob, zone etc....But it is fun to see how much you can push the limit without getting hit. In all of my time playing in this manner (trying not to pull aggro) I have NEVER been accused by anyone in any group of NOT doing my job. I also play the utility role and still manage to have high DPS when I have played in groups where someone was parsing. I still think a lot of it is just pushing buttons, but it is a question of how fast, how often and which ones...
