It was hard to get the gist of what you are saying as black type does not show up well. But I never said that Technology would go the same route as on Terra, after all we have Clockworks, blasting powder, fireworks, Brock's Thermal Shocker, air ships etc all of which are a melding of Technology and Magic. In the end Magic, technology and Mecho-magical (Magi-tech?) all have the possibility of breaking down, fizzling, going berserk or even miscasting. Maintenance would be needed for all, and all came with inherent operator/caster error.
DrkVsr wrote: Of course Real Life ideas and concepts are being brought into Norrath - the developers have been constantly tooting the 'realism' horn, even though there's been bloody little actual 'realism' to it. And I have to disagree with your contention that Norrathians 'have no concept' - were that the case, then even the basics of tinkering would not exist. As to the 'Illuminati'...that is not an implausible theory. In fact, for many of the technological advances that SHOULD have occurred despite the presence of magic, that suppositional Illuminati analog would pretty much HAVE to exist. And cannons and (especially) airships would likely be developed at an even faster rate in a place like Norrath. How? Simple. Take that airship, for example. Gnomes have sent flying gizmos into the sky for a long time...I do not see it as an implausibility that somehow, somewhere, some gnome managed to figure out the basics of aerodynamics, and how it might be applied in a rather mundane fashion to other applications. Hot air balloons, dirigibles, and even 'powered' airships would all come about this way. In truth, to start the whole thing, all it took was one apple knocking a scholar on the head...and that came AFTER they figured out that the Earth wasn't shaped like a Junior Mint.
Zabjade wrote: Yup, everything has the possibility. There is even a quest which has you repair spectral sentries in the Commonlands because they broke down after several years. It seemed as though you were implying that magic was inherently more maintainence than technology, which wouldn't be true.
WeatherMan wrote: It's quite well known that gnomish tinkering does not always end well...their first major success, the Clockworks, kicked them out of their home. It's more likely that the gnome(s) responsible for the airship died when it crashed, blew up, etc. Racial characteristics play a role as well. The gnomes are quite prideful of their inventions, and even if the airship worked it would be unlikely that any self respecting inventor gnome would copy it or innovate it. Our inventions have happened mostly through trial and error. Throw in gnomish eccentricities and you have a disaster. Most major inventions did not happen like the inventor wanted them to. What you are asking of Norrath is to develope polluting(important for the elvish races that have a prominent presence) ancient (early tech was not so great and more detrimental!) technology despite magic existing. You could perhaps make a case for magi- technology but apart from the gnomes there is no motive to start creating. People have ideas all the time, but whether or not it is made into something is different.
Pyra Shineflame wrote: It is true that gnomish mechanical inclination is hardly the most reliable, no argument there. However, the point is more along the lines of, for lack of a better way to put it, 'good ol' human ingenuity', although the race in question need not be human. It is entirely within the realm of possibility to have a barbarian 'greasemonkey', who managed to get herself apprenticed to an eccentric 'mad tinker' gnome, and in the process figured out what NOT to do, enough to open her own 'tinker shop' (for lack of a better term coming to mind) in Graystone Yard...or that eccentric ratonga wizard who has 'absorbed' through observation (and the occasional theft of reading material) the mechanical skills of his neighbors in Temple Street...enough that he has managed to reverse-engineer several gnomish designs that SHOULD have worked, and in so doing, has discovered WHY they didn't work exactly as intended. Point being, it need not be a gnome who copies or innovates...if one limits the entire realm of possibility to JUST gnomes, the other races are, in a way, being given short shrift in that regard. No race is an island, so to speak - to think of them as a homogeneous lot is simply a bad idea. Anyone can learn Tinkering, for example (save those who chose Transmuting, of course) - why could they not expand on that? A lot of that would go, mechanics-wise, into that very Tinkering skill should it ever expand to encompass 'bigger gadgets', while the remainder can be filled in through background, biography, roleplay, and lore. This gives the avenue of explanation for 'trial and error' without the need to worry about the catastrophic consequences of gnomish eccentricity. As for the elvish races...yes, I'll agree they would have issues with a lot of the concepts of early technology (as a larger group...although I contend there would be exceptions even among them). It is, however, quite easy to see, say, that aforementioned ratonga wizard giving a protesting Koada'Dal a sly smile and saying to her "Of course, of course...and your ways will, of course, preserves Qeynos and Freeports as effectively as Felwithes has been, yes?" In short. 'your ways didn't work, the proof is there, so shut up and take your pointy-eared behind somewhere else'. I remember a supplement for a TSR Inc. p&p RPG...although I don't remember the name of the game right off the top, the supplement was named MagiTech - with magical devices performing the function of things we use technology for, such as telephones, microwaves, radios, flashlights, televisions, and so on...pretty much anything you can imagine in modern-day mundania had a magical analog. Norrath is not at this point, nor is it advancing technologically...it seems caught in developmental limbo due to the fact that non-gnomes are (seemingly) complete dullards when it comes to innovation and inspirational ideas, and suffer from an appalling lack of both curiousity and ingenuity. The case can be made for a mage (or even a divine spellcaster) not worrying overly much about such things, but I can easily see that Qeynosian 'tinker' using her longbow to pepper a band of Tallon orcs from a distance, and then when they close to a distance where the bow is useless, she drops it and cross-draws a pair of wheellocks (maybe even more than one pair), fires them, drops/holsters them, and at last draws her claymore (which would be quite consistent with 'real-world' use of early-stage firearms, which were used as 'softening-up' weapons, rather than a main-line weapon like we see in the 1700's and later eras when rifled barrels made guns a practical choice). All that being said, I do not think I would much like to see a gunshop suddenly crop up in West Freeport, or In-Range (Elddar Grove) suddenly start offering muskets to their clientele - guns are not 'Norrathian' enough in flavor. While I would accept cannons aboard a ship or atop a battlement, going further than that would be just a bit much.
Not that this is relevant at all, since we're dealing with a fantasy universe, but it should probably be borne in mind that even on earth, technology did not always progress in a linear fashion. After the fall of the Byzantine and Roman Empires, technology took a huge step back for over a thousand years. It wasn't until the renaissance that earth "caught up" with itself and started matching the technological feats of empires long since fallen.
WeatherMan wrote: Sorry, but don't lay the destruction of Felwithe on the Koada'Dal. That wasn't entirely their fault. Gnomes were more responsible for that than the High Elves were.
Oh good we got out of the spinning around and around bit and are not getting into the meaty stuff! I will have to re-read these tomorrow when I have more time, computer problems have kept me off the past 2 days. Should be 100% by tomorrow or at least 99%. BTW apparently Goblins are also known as a Tinkering race this explains the Gigglegibbers a lot! I just wonder what would happen if they found out what made the Erudites look like XT's and humans met at a Xanthian Love Spring.
the advancement of technology comes from nesity. in norrath they have magic which hinders the advancement of technology. yet as of this point norrath has not seen a enemy that they could not kill with magic. if this were to arise many people would die until someone came up with the musket. still technology has a part in bettering man rather than just war fare. a refrigerator would be a great advancement. even if it would have to be on the black market. thus so if a invention was created that could hold a ice comet then one could use that to charge a magical attack increasing its power. i would think that technology in norrath would lend its self more to modern technology. norath has crystals which means with magic u can create a laser far more powerful than any other attack. magic + technology = awesome power
Gnome may have invented a spaceship that allows them to go to the moon. But if no one wants to use whats the point of making more? It has been shown in human history that Romans and greek created things that were not seen again till the industrial Revolution. They never got much head way back then b/c society didnt need or want the tech. I chalk up every gnome invention thats seen but not massed pruduced as a recent test or something that never really caught on. Why risk going in an airship when magic transport is proven to be faster and safer?
I'm thinking of one area that Technology would have an edge, Kithicor Isle, the Phantom Sea is a still area so sailing ships tend to flounder, even those that use tinkered elementals to fill the sails. perhaps a steam ship would be required to get to the island, it's lost treasure and to erase the stain (or at least beat it back to EQ1 Levels).
that sounds good. i would like to think that magic like technology is limited by the current information. i wounder would a jet wonder someone from norrath as much as a fire ball would us. so i think there is plenty of room for technology they just need some people to flash forward it. well lets think this way. the first people to use magic they didnt say oh well why do i need to practice this when i can make fire by hitting 2 stones together. they had persistance to try something new even if there were easier ways at first. you may say we dont need technology but remeber that nothing is changing now. we may see later armys of magic less technology users with photon cannons and starships. also with magic u cant hit someone from 300 thousand miles away and if our enemys can then we are at a sever disadvantage
The Assault on McScroogle's Sweatshop (as ah like to call this years Frostfell Event ) has you using primative bombs to blow up the workstations How long before some ingenious individual gets the idea to use the 'grenades' on mobs? Naturally one would have to be careful as it would not be like spells and damage everyone (friend, foe and neutral alike) in the area of effect (maybe would be a great weapon for tanks to use: they get up close and personal with the mob and stuffs the grenade down the mobs throat )
Xita wrote: They were not grenades, but bottles with some fluid in it. The closest modern thing to that would be a molotov coktail. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_cocktail
Drager@Nektulos wrote: Likely using an explosive substance. Grenades, for example, aren't new, they've been used for a long long time.
I think what they are trying to do is ease us into technology. with the goblins in kunark being the next step with their salt peter or however they spell it. also the leashes and such that are used to take control of monsters are technology in their own right.
