Knights stance VS Duel Wielding Debate

Please do not feed the Bruener troll anymore. It is obvious from his numerous posts everywhere that he is self centered and apparently lives in deathly fear that his "I win button" class will be nerfed. He will NEVER EVER admit what almost everyone else universally sees. Crusaders (although mainly SKs) are imbalanced and overpowered.

RAYVEN2 wrote:

Wrong. Breuners Guardian MT posted logs and parses of raid tanking and his DPS was less than the raid's SK that was holding back to keep from grabbing agro. Then, when the parse was evaluated, the MT's DPS was ~30% from MT buffs that would have also applied to any other MT. Therefore, the highly geared Guardian MT DPS is ~50% less than SK DPS.
Please try to keep from making totally incorrect statements in the future. It just further muddies the water so people can't see the truth.

Boli32 wrote:

I like math. I have a minor in it as a result of my Major. One thing you need to be aware of is that math is suppose to model real life events. When the results of the math do not match the actual results then you need to correct/expand/rethink your math.
The fact is, Crusaders get to do more DPS with a IH + Shield + KS becasue that is how the game is designed. Adding a 2 hander that would allow a Crusader to out parse their IH + S + KS combo would just further break the game.
You do to much DPS now. You do to much now with uncontested avoidance still on. You do to much to the point that it breaks the game and 100% breaks any kind of fighter balance. Your a tank for god sakes. Act like it and get back into the reality of this Fantasy MMO game.

Wasuna wrote:

What are you talking about. I have never seen a parse from my MT on these forums with his DPS. The Guard I play with is not nearly as concerned about DPS as a lot of others. He does a great job being the MT. He builds himself to survive, and even DPS'ing less he controls the mob. He does it with both me and the Bruiser in the guild that parses high are beating on the mob.
Not sure what these parses that you are talking about are. None that I have seen.
Guard = highest survivability. With the changes going in it means even better agro control, ST and AE. Not to mention some real nice tools to increase the over-all survivability of their group/raid. Those are the changes Guards needed...if you are hoping for equal DPS keep dreaming.

Boli32 wrote:

The DPS potential of 1hand + shield + KS is higher than any other class retaining uncontested block.
This is why KS is OP and needs to be adjusted to a 2hand only modifier that could make crusaders the highest plate dps potential, but would take a reasonable survivability hit to do so.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

I agree that soemthing needs to be done, but allowing Crusaders to do even more DPS is unacceptable. Allowing for maxium DPS while maintaing uncontested avoidance is just plain wrong and the solution your propose is just as bad.

RAYVEN2 wrote:

Wrong those 60-70-80k parses are on raid mobs and named and many of the fights stretch into a couple of minutes of course there AE mobs 90% of the entire content is AE what else would they be. Thats the current standard of the game AE so thats what all the parses are from.
And a Guard duel weilding will not touch a crusader especialy on hardmode mobs unless the crusader is a poor example of what his class can do and I mean real poor example.
The arguement of they can do it is the worst in the book, sure they can do it but that doesnt mean balance when some classes do it with alot less risk, alot more dps, alot better group buffs, alot more damage reduction abilities, alot better threat generation. Both a Yugo and a Ferrari can drive you somewhere, given the choice what one would you pick.

Bruener wrote:

All tanks (plus clerics and bards) have that very same avoidance buff. Look, I don't think brawlers suck. We sucked in TSO, sure, but we're hardly useless now. We're not broken, we're just a smidge underpowered. Maybe the changes on test will fix us to the point of being balanced--it certainly seems like they're well suited to helping with the areas where we're falling behind right now (survivability, dps when tanking, and AE aggro). I don't particularly want to be the MT, to be honest. I'm one of our offtanks, and I'm happy tanking Penda and Aaskas, dragging spores and blobs, picking up Roehn Theer and holding him when the tank gets punted off the platform, etc. I think most OTs in raid guilds are probably pretty happy with their position. However, I would like my class to exist in a place where either MTing is an option for us (even if I don't take advantage of that option), or where we have some sort of role that no one else can fill.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Its almost like people dont understand what the origonal intent for knights stance was...oh...wait..

Knight's Stance is even more necessary now actually, because since the fighter nerf crusaders have one thing to bring to the table, AE DPS and aggro control. And now a bunch of people call for that to go away?
As a paladin I now have an entire AA line that is completely worthless to spend any points in, and 4 class defining spells that are utterly pointless to cast unless I want to waste power. And a number of useless red adorns.
Bottom line, stop calling for nerfs, its not constructive. Instead spend your time suggesting ways to improve your own class. Or just learning how to not suck.

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

Those parses have absolutely nothing to do with the Knight's Stance. They are a direct result of the spell reflection AA. Learn something about a class you are talking about before you complain.

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Warrior +1hander+shield+crit bonus === crusader+1hander+shield+KS
Unless a warrior suddenly looses uncontested avoidance when using a shield now - if you have read through my previous posts and understood the maths (here's a tip: 1+1=2) this woudl be obvious.
Knight's stance with 2hander only *is* overpowered; very much so and no crusader worth anything has advocated for this change

Boli32 wrote:

The fact is that Crusaders seriously out DPS Guardians with a shield equiped (without the sheild also but that's a different topic). It's not even close.
You might be saying that a Crusaders AUTTOATTACK alone might be equal to a Warriors AUTTOATTACK and that might be true... but who cares? It's the total parse that is important. Autoattack is just a line in the total parse.

Wasuna wrote:

Knight's Stance only affects auto-attack, and from that regard, it is balanced. To attempt to counteract the overall parse by nerfing auto-attack damage is faulty logic at best.
A large portion of crusader DPS comes from their procs, and they have AA's to boost that. If you think something else is broken, then it is a matter of correcting other skills, on the other characters. And if you want crusader DPS nerfed in that regard, then I think we need to nerf guardian survivability.
Its simply a clear case of you can't have your cake and eat it too. When crusaders get something as powerful as stoneskins for mitigating damage, I'll say their DPS needs to be nerfed. Until then, I say stoneskins need to be nerfed, as it makes guardians mitigate way to much damage. Maybe a stoneskin that mitigates 50% of incoming damage would be balanced.

Wasuna wrote:

And a Guard will block a huge amount of damage that a SK would take. 2 different classes with different abilities. I mean you want Guards to have equal DPS...AND...retain clearly superior survivability? So if we are going to keep trading back in forth am I going to get my ToS ability and my LMS ability, oh and hey how about changing GS back to what it was since you will have an AE target lock, etc etc etc.
Yes other fighters CAN survive in content, but that is because of outrageous healer mechanics. 2 healers though will have a way easier time keeping a Guard from ping ponging over a SK and over the course of anything that is challenging at all the Guard will take significantly less damage over the fight. Not to mention the ability to time their massive block abilities with AEs which do more spike damage than any other part of encounters.

The problem with Knight's Stance is that it removes the choice of max/optimal DPS vs uncontested avoidance. I don't think 2k-4k DPS in a raid is going to break any crusader, but it needs to be a choice presented to them just like the other four fighters.
I think Knight's Stance should be changed to allow a crusader to swing a one-handed weapon as a two-hander. I'm not sure what the multiplier is for converting a one-hander to a two-hander, but I think it is about a 1.4 multiplier on test, might be 1.5. KS could be changed to add 20% of that multiplier per point when wielding a one-handed weapon and no shield. So at 5 points into KS a crusader could wield a one-handed weapon as if it were a two-handed weapon and only be one click away from equipping a shield.
This would give crusaders the choice of doing more damage or using a shield, which what warriors are presented with.

altuslumen wrote:

The problem with this idea is it completely negates the idea of 2h weapons, well at least for Crusaders. A wield style that is envisioned as a Knight-type ability...hence Crusaders not being able to DW, and even in EQ1 2h weps designed for Crusaders to tank with.
Really I would like KS to change into an ability for Crusaders to tank with a 2h weapon. Basically you could have the 1h+board style for tough content. Than make KS give the Crusader an innate shield ability when wielding a 2h weapon. It could be like 2/3 the avoidance of what a regular shield gives and just like a shile +block chance would somehow work with it.

Bruener wrote:

Based on the feedback of all of the raid tanks here on this forum the difference between the overall survivability of equally geared Guardians and SK in a raid enviroment is ~1%. Your comment that it's the healers that make this work is incorrect based on the conculaion of the people here. Ping Ponging doesn't matter when you have 2-3 triggers of Bloodletter hence the use of Overall Survivability above.
So, yes.. I want my DPS to be ~1% less than the SK.

Based on the feedback of all of the guardians that cann't play there class with out god mod here on this forum the difference between the overall survivability of equally geared Guardians and SK in a raid enviroment is ~1%. Your comment that it's the healers that make this work is incorrect based on the conculaion of the people here. Ping Ponging doesn't matter when you have 2-3 triggers of Bloodletter hence the use of Overall Survivability above.
There fixed it for you.

Edminime wrote:

You're an idiot. Any guardian here could pick up a paladin and within a week be twice the tank they were playing a guard.