Knights stance VS Duel Wielding Debate

OK, so let's kill the whole CB vs KS debate since they really aren't relevant to each other. Let's talk about KS vs DW, since DW is going to flurry and double attack is KS now as effective as a comparable skill? If not how should we fix it without furthering crusaders OP'dness. Let's stay away from the name calling, SK/Palys this is an obvious disadvantage please comment. Keep it non personal we don't need another thread locked because u guys want to call names.

Knights Stance gives you a massive DPS edge to Warriors when Warriors need to use a shield.
If you're going to argue versus dual wielding, argue 2 handers versus dual wielding, as 2 handers have just been brought up in damage (and should probably do more damage now than a 1 hander with Knight's Stance). In both cases neither of you are using a shield.

Xalmat wrote:

Well isn't the whole point of KS to offset duel wielding?
EDIT: Let me be clear, with the changes coming is KS as effective anymore. If it was somewhat balanced to DW before the DW buffs is it still balanced?

The whole point of KS is to offset using a shield instead of a 2 hander.

Xalmat wrote:

Except crusaders cant DW right? I mean they can 2H to thier hearts concent but they can't DW

BChizzle wrote:

You're forgetting that the changes on Test bring 2H damage up nearly to dual wield damage. You might wanna hop on Test server and compare the damage of 2 handers versus what they are on Live servers, and then compare them to two equal-tier dual wield weapons (remember to factor in the extra 1/3 weapon delay that dual wielding brings in).

Even IF they change KS to 2H weapons and forcing Crusader to use a 2H for DPS, its still inferior to warriors. Why? Because of the forced delay on switching back during combat, as warriors just need one click to change offhand against shield, and crusaders needs two clicks, 2H for shield - forced delay - empty hand for weapon. This takes more than triple the time to switch back to defense as a crusader then. This needs to be changed too.

Warriors/brawlers can use a 2hander and DW - crusader can use a 2handed. After the change to autoatatck mechanics a few things become obvious
> 2handed vs DW even with flurry and AoE Auto procving off both hands it *should* be equal due to increase in damage
> There are very few decent 2handers in the game right now, we have 2 from 4 rune theer and hard mode construct I think. Given you can't use a 2hander or DW past or at these mobs it seems a bit weird to have them coming from later mobs. there shyoudl be DPS centric weapons drop from lower level mobs
> Warriors and Brawlers still have the 20% crit bonus advantage but since crusaders are less focused on autoattack to DPS (more procs) then honestly it doesn't matter too much
Verdict: Who cares on this one... I see the options as pretty equal... the only problem I see is lack of decent 2handers on the earlier mobs... when you will actually USE them.
Knight's stance is irrelavent due to needing a shield... so why even bring it up KS vs CB is roughtly equal; the additional benefit warriors/brawlers gain from the crit bonus doesn't *really* matter as there are quite frankly more important things to balance in the fighter debate.

Sounds to me like its just fine.
Hypothetically if a warrior or brawler chose to use a 2 hander instead of dual wielding and they wanted to switch back to sword and board or DWing they are in the same boat.

Xalmat wrote:

Except Crusaders can't DW, warriors and brawlers can. So warriors and brawlers can avoid the forced delay on switching, crusaders cannot.

Uh, youre arguing about the forced 2 second delay from switching items mid combat, a mechanic that has existed for years. I highly doubt it will be changed for any reason.

KS was put in the game to balance crusaders to dw guardians and there 5 different abilities to block incoming damage on very short timers.
And guardians like to avoid talking about these 5 different abilites to block incoming damage as a hole.

If you ask me there are too many factors involved when looking at Knights stance, personally you cannot have a debate of just Knights Stance vs Duel Wielding you would have to have a deep understanding on how each of the other classes work. I certainly don't pretend to have this knowledge, nor do I have time to get it, I am happy concentrating on one class as I have done since day one.
It is never as clear cut as the name of this thread suggests.
Example, when comparing just the two, allot of the raid content now can be duel weilded. Duel weilding is worth approx 40% more auto attack damage, you loose uncontested avoidance when duel weilding but if your living it doesn't matter. Knights stance is 25% more auto attack damage but keeps uncontested avoidance, this uncontested avoidance is required for some raid mobs. Seems like a nice trade of to me to be honest, BUT there are so many other factors involved that what I just said should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Im in the same mind as Boli on this one, with the changes to 2H and DW it looks pretty equal, and the only problem I see is that the only semi decent 2 hander before HM mobs is from the x2. From this I wouldn't mind a sublime 2 hander from the merch for seals and a slightly better one adding to someone like Pera Celsis then an even better one on Waansu. (That way people arent forced to go back to killing an easy mode mob for one), and obviously they shouldnt be as good as the ones from 3 rune theer or the construct.
Kahling

Contested avoidance vs no contested avoidance?
Yea... I'll take knight's stance plz.

So you're happy to trade your 20% crit bonus for Knight's stance then?... fine by me -just remember it only works with a shield only for auoattack (not CAs) oh.. and you need 120 AA and spend 5 AA to get it.

if you ask me, making offhand aoe and flurry etc for dw is a bad idea. i think it will be op. pretty much ruins any motivation for me wanting a 2h too.

Do I detect envy? Honestly crusaders have been and will still pack a punch offensively and defensively. This should be good for guards and brawlers since these fighters have been keeping the bench warm for the last two expacs.

Boli32 wrote:

Apparently you haven't read the instructions on this thread, this isn't CB vs KS 2.0. Please stop bringing it up, KS is a buff that exists to combat the fact crusaders cant DW, it has nothing to do with a .2 crit bonus advantage, it existed before that advantage was even added to the game.
When crit was made universal crusaders spells became grossly overpowered due to the fact you guys went from like 30%ish spell crit and hardly any spell crit bonus to full on 100% critting and full crit bonus of your spell attacks. Your spells and thier damage numbers were balanced on the fact that as a crusader capping spell and melee crit would be extremely difficult as would spell and melee mods. Rather then adjusting your spells down in damage the devs gave non crusaders an extra amount of crit bonus. That is why there is a .2 difference it has nothing to do with KS please let it go.

BChizzle wrote:

Wrong. Before stat consolidation, crusaders had at least 70% spellcrit due to the crusader-INT line already and with the new crusader-loving TSO equipment easily 100%. So the only thing that changed damage with SF was CB and potency, but this happened to every other class too.
And the only real change for crusaders was heal crit, wich was around 50ish usually and came to 100% now. The first time those heals actually felt like heals.

To the OP...
Yes KS does need an adjustment IF they aren't going to beef up 2h weps even more than what they are on test to catch up with the new DW mechanics.
As a Brawler I am sure you understand how powerful the huge amount of AE auto attack is with both weapons being able to proc it, along with how much more DPS DW will give on single targets due to the flurry mechanics. Xelgad bumped 2h weps 12% roughly to catch up with DW.....but that 12% increase only catches up to DW mechanics pre-AE/flurry from the offhand. As the game progresses and people reach capped AE auto attack and start getting more and more flurry it is going to become obvious the gap that DW has over 2h. Shocking really because we all know 2h weps should have been brought up 12% to match what DW'ing is doing on Live....makes no sense.
KS really should be changed to 15-25%(pending testing) base damage to all wep types. This would help close the big gap between 2h and DW.
I mean what Brawler/Warrior is going to use a 2h to DPS at all when DW has such an obvious advantage. Not to mention the much faster change to 1h+board that DW'ing gets over 2h...and for Brawlers even that is moot since they are a DW all the time class.