Itemization Complaint

Discussion in 'Items and Equipment' started by Koko, Jan 23, 2015.

  1. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    I'm all about the bling bling.

    Seriously though, Jewelry matters, but less than you think, solely because the best heroic options are at least semi-viable compared to entry/middle tier raid options.

    True, if you have every single slot figured out as to what will be the most efficient, you'll score the better parse if someone else is lacking gear, but that is part of the game. Generally, the "what gear is best" game isn't overly hard to figure out, and there actually aren't huge gaps between players who are 1 piece short because the piece they have isn't a 0.

    You say ring X gives +25% damage.
    You say player A has ring X and player B does not.
    You neglect that player B is wearing ring y, which gives +22% damage.
    If player B is wearing no ring, player A stomps them. But in reality, you can pick up heroic jewelry pieces that are at least feasible (stuff like Etheral Strike procs, etc) and only marginally worse. Yes, if you're in handcrafted crap you're gonna get stomped, but simply said, someone with Best in slot ring 1 and best in slot ring 2 will not absolutely destroy someone with 2nd best stuff.
  2. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    On top of that, if you put me in all 2nd/3rd best in slot mage jewelry, and you put a warlock who is maybe... a top 30 kind of warlock, but not a top 10 warlock, and you gave them best in slot jewelry, I would absolutely destroy them, and it would likely not even be close.
    Kuulei likes this.
  3. Crychtonn Active Member

    Thanks for not reading the rest of the post. Both posts it seems. Good to know.

    Koko please read the post above from Mogrim.
  4. Widem Active Member

    I'm not sure what you are trying to imply, but if you are taking the warlock class...If you have a highly skilled and experience player vs. one that is unskilled and inexperienced, all things being equal gear wise, an experience warlock would destroy an inexperienced warlock at a rate incredibly higher than 10%, more like 100% or possibly more.
    Kuulei likes this.
  5. Koko Well-Known Member

    I accept your challenge!

    Lets play with winds(150 P)/truespirits(108 P)/EV(~80 P) stacking, but otherwise useless, group mates and a "base" warlock with CB and P values of 800 and an int of 10k for simplicity. We can make things complicated and drag AA multipliers, auto attack damage %, adornments, reforging ability mod caps and all of that nonsense into the jewelry debate... but that favors the person with the calculator - so lets keep things simple!

    Botlock's gear*:
    Necklace: 64 CB/P Allied Energy
    Earring 1:96 P Uplifting Power IV
    Earring 2:96 CB Uplifting Criticals IV
    Ring 2:96 CP/P AmplifyingPower III
    Wrist 1:120 CB Firm Stance III
    Wrist 2: 0.8% all dmg Noxious Rending IV**
    Charm 1: 70 CB Kerafyrm's Furor
    Charm 2: 18% all Attributes Kerafyrm's Rites II
    *gear hardly optimized, but powerful (defeats the purpose of the jewelry trumps everything argument if I use advanced math to pick it right? Then its jewelry + advanced math > everything)
    **likely better choices here, but I am very lazy (see first note)
    Net: +622 CB, +256 P, 18% attributes, 0.8% dmg

    Net multiplier = 260.49
    CB x P multiplier [1+(50+ 800 + 622)/100] * [1+(800 + 594)/100] = 234.8568
    Int multiplier 2.59/2.52 = 1.027
    Wrist multiplier = 1.08

    Your move! I'm interested to see your jewelry selection. I'll grant you +10% base damage over the Botlock.
  6. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    Prolock's gear*:
    Necklace: 108.5 Average Potency: The Finisher III
    Earring 1:96 P Uplifting Power IV
    Earring 2:48 P 48 CB Uplifting Soul II
    Ring 1:20 SDA Uplifting Voice
    Ring 2:96 CP/P AmplifyingPower III
    Wrist 1:110 CB Firm Stance II
    Charm 1: 160 CB Growing Criticals IV
    Charm 2: 150 CB 150 P Salvo III

    Disclaimer: The Finisher III is the right neck to take as T1 dps, since Healer Classes have no value in grabbing it, so pot/cb necks like the one you have... even though they'll perform better, should go to the Healers first. Therefore, I don't have it.

    Disclaimer 2: 2 old pieces of jewelry. Because the Math favors them.

    Disclaimer 3: To play Warlock, you play all out for Net Spike Multiplier. Why? Because you'll be mimic'd during the spike. And if so, then you're going to generate well more than half your overall damage during that spike time. However, for the sake of this post, we could assume it only accounts for 50% of your total damage.

    That means that the clickies from my charms, although only up for very short periods of time, benefit a non-bot playing style. One must sync up the two charms to be up and active at the same time you use Spell Bind and Focused Casting.
    Iseous likes this.
  7. Iseous Active Member

    Mogrim definitely won, although I'm assuming you weren't allowed to use any uplifting or amplifying effects, but maybe the ones from last expansion.
  8. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    For reference, with this set up, I'm currently parsing 40mil+ on Grimlings and 35mil+ on Perador (from 90% to death)
  9. Koko Well-Known Member

    Depends on your point of view.

    If the objective was to show how a warlock can be optimized around clickies over static effects, yes he won.

    If the objective was to show how a warlock can be powerful without being pigeon holed into the exact subset of raid items that I created this thread complaining about, he failed. He failed horribly.
  10. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    No, I exactly showed both.
    Essentially... a Warlock can choose

    Neck: Finisher OR Allied necks (although its worse for the raid's overall gear progression if they take allied necks)
    Ears: Any Uplifting pot/cb/pot+cb Types, (3 or 4 to pick from)
    Rings: Amplified Potency, Criticals, Power, or SDA ring from old content (again, 3-4 to pick from)
    Wrists: Stand Still Crit Bonus, Old Uplifting, Practiced Potency, Practiced Crit Bonus, Practiced Power (5+ to pick from, more if you include old ones)
    Charms: Passive CB, Passive Pot, Passive Raw Stats, Salvo, Growing Potency, Growing Crit Bonus (6+ to Pick from, more if you include old ones)

    You're only pigeon-holded if you are trying to fit a very specific damage style.
    I am not a glass cannon. I am a glass superlaser. As a result, I grab different gear from a Warlock who isn't concerned about being the mimic target. In fact, my dps rotation is even a little bit self-restricted to the point of hurting my personal raw numbers in order to make sure I hit those 4x peaks for my chanters, even though it shows up on //their// parses not mine.

    Even doing all that, and going for less than ideal pieces in some slots, I guarantee you're not close to my parses. And I even waste AA on self-UT so that our Fury can get it.
  11. Errrorr An Actual EQ2 Player

    I started reading this thread more, then I realised you said I was decent at ranger.

    Then I laughed, laughed a little more, and realised I couldn't take the thread seriously any more.
    Koko likes this.
  12. Koko Well-Known Member

    Thats my point though, choose from a small subset of over powered raid jewelery.

    You cannot take a heroic geared warlock to raid and do well. You cannot contribute without these items.
    A heroic character will perform at 118x
    A Botlock character will perform at 234x

    Jewelry is "roughly" 2x damage multiplier. Which creates a mechanic similar to CC/Crit mit in DoV. If you do not have items with these stats, do not bother showing up.
  13. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    Ethereal Strike Wrist is about as good as any others.
    Heroic Neck w/ Damage Reduction is possibly best in slot actually. Forgot about that one altogether.
    +incoming magic damage ear is nearly best in slot
    There is only 1 amazing heroic ring,

    So yes - for 2nd Ring, Eye of Drinal ring is a bit of a downgrade. 2nd Wrist isn't so hot, and 2nd Ear isn't so hot.

    But we're talking about more like 180x vs 234x.
  14. Koko Well-Known Member

    Ethereal strike is about half as good, mebbe.
    We're in agreement on +% damage magic ear, that thing is amazing (I likely rank it even higher than you).
    No comment on DR neck.
    Rings suck. =/

    I'll give you x130 with Ethereal Strike & Drinal, 155x with the Amp. Power III ring.
    We're still light years away from AAs, skill order, reforging, and adornment selection mattering. ;__;

    I'm with you, I want the Prolock to beat the **** out of the bot. I don't want it to even be close. I want them to win by as much as they possibly can, I want them to win by the full 10%! Unfortunately, with how strong jewelry is, that just isn't possible right now.

    Wouldn't it be better for the player to start out at 90x vs. the bot's 95x, and then surpass the extra 5x through AAs, adorns, reforges, and skill? That is the game I want to play. That is what this thread is about.
  15. Asmati New Member

    I think what Koko is trying, rather poorly, to say is that the magnitude of gear improvements from raid is far from constant.

    4/4 green to 1/1 purple is a ~3 CB/P difference. This is beatable by playing well.
    heroic to raid jewelry is a 100+ CB or P difference. This isn't.

    It would be nice to see raid improvements in line with the armor, rather than the jewelry.
  16. Mystie New Member

    Heroic geared characters played by skilled people can beat any encounter in the game, raid jewelry doesn't matter. This game is ez enough as is, don't need you making it easier by removing the important of farming. Casual trash can't expect to beat raid players, thats why their raid players. They do more damage because they're gud, jewelry has nothing to do with it.

    tl;dr L2P nubs.
  17. Eles Well-Known Member

    if raid jewelry doesn't matter? why we should bother to raid then? Yes. it helps a bit if you are a skilled player, but this was a developer decision. I agree with Koko, any player should have the chance to balance with gear, AA's, reforge and skills and be almost the same like someone not wearing this uber proc jewelry.

    Iseous is right too. If he gives me his warlock even with super raid gear I wouldn't know what to click or what to push and any warlock with skills and crappy gear will beat me. He and many other mage players agree that devs should revisit and fix some AA's that doesn't matter at this point of the game. (you know what I mean)

    We hope Xelgad not only reads the proposals on tanks,scouts,mages and healers. I know this is a titanical work for a programmer/code. We understand that its really hard to please all the people and not sure if SOE Daybreak Game Company will have the budget to give him more minions to help him to code again in a few weeks or months.

    I still want the chest that some devs propose in order to give the people who finished the signature quest from KoS. \aITEM -1391477988 -1073654433:Mark of the Awakened Intellect\/a | its a neck item with a nice appearance, so if you could give us a chest version for that :)
  18. Crychtonn Active Member

    Koko looses because he keeps ignoring the fact this isn't last Xpac. A ton of these items come off the first tier of raid mobs (some of which can be one grouped) and even more come off the second tier of raid mobs. They aren't that hard to get and it's made it much easier for middle tier guilds. There isn't as huge a gap in DPS potential between the middle tier guilds and the top tier. The top tier guilds still crush the mid tier guilds but that comes down to them being filled with very good button pushers. Something Koko gives way to little credit for.
  19. Koko Well-Known Member

    We are having different arguments.

    My argument
    • These items severely decrease the significance of player choices
    • These items create a barrier-to-entry to content which historically has been a bad move (e.g. crit mit)
    Your argument
    • These items are easy to get so that makes it okay
    I've said it before, the difference between competitive players is 2~3% EncDPS (base). This is a huge difference. Jewelry is way more than that. With-

    Screw it. For the love of this thread someone explain to me what people mean by "skilled button pushers" because I'm fairly fed up with that being the "catch all" for this turdfest. This isn't a difficult task, Avg Dmg/(C.Time+R.Time) sort, done. You can finagle some combat mastery, use a temp clicky there, actually use Razer-Edge as a swashbuckler, etc. these I will give you - but realize these "optimizations" are about 2~3% better of the "next best" player.

    Are you comparing yourself, a self-declared-pro-gamer, to someone who doesn't know how to sort numbers in Excel? If so, shut up and **** of my thread so the rest of us that have higher standards don't have to listen to you. Don't get me wrong, I love detailed discussions regarding skill order, but at least try to make them interesting. Give me an example of what makes it "super special awesome" and it had better start with "the expected encounter duration is ___" otherwise I don't give a damn.
    DoomDrake likes this.
  20. Errrorr An Actual EQ2 Player

    There is the issue. It is a task. A task in which I'd say maybe 5% of the EQ2 Population has ever considered or done.

    Skilled button pushers are those who push the right buttons at the right time.
    Unskilled button pushers, are those who press them whenever they light up on hotbars.

    I'm not the best on ranger, but I'd like to think if you put me in equal gear to another ranger who hadn't spent the time doing the math, there would be a much bigger gap than 2-3%. I'd wager more 10-20%.
    Koko likes this.