The bird isn't a liability, and I find it an extra 80 DPS for 30 seconds inbetween AEs =P Rangers are not an AE class.
I think the thinking was, here's a spell that will allow DPS guys in the ranger's group to do more damage, and in raids the dps group the ranger is in can go at it hard while it's up. In practice, none of that is true. There's several issues with it, including: (a) it breaks stealthing, which is hugely important to rangers - even more than assassins, since our ranged stealth attacks have long casting times, (b) when the bird dies or goes away, all of it's aggro transfers to the ranger which often will peel a mob immediately, and (c) it tends to die in AOEs a lot which often causes an instant peel. For this reason, many raids outlaw it because the potential for a peel is much worse than any bonus hate transfer it might do for 30 seconds. Also, most raids in T7 now have excellent hate management, with most classes almost able to go completely all-out the entire time. The bottom line is, it's pretty much worthless because it's solving a problem that isn't really a problem in raids or most groups (which are properly equipped/set up) and no raid leader is ever going to say, "[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], we need a ranger for that hate bird". What's the point of a skill which does no real damage, takes up a valuable level 65 special spell slot, is redundant to a good raid setup, and is usually banned? It just gives us a deficit of a skill compared to other classes, almost any of which have a more useful spell. Some classes have very nice level 65 skills, and then there's Rangers. p.s. consider the Assassin level 65 skill which reduces recasts temporarily. Uh which is better?! Message Edited by Xney on 07-14-2006 01:29 PM
The bird only sends aggro back when it dies, and yeah, it breaks stealthing.. umm ? Time your ability use? Do you use your sniper shot when an AE is about to hit? It takes a little thinking, you can't just click with the ranger now.
It is not as useful as a timer reduction...and it has no real hp's...so in a raid I would imagine it would die from one AoE...right? I dunno...from lack of excessive personal experience with it...I can only defer to others to form my opinion... I will keep reading this thread with interest. Message Edited by Saihung23 on 07-14-2006 04:47 PM
Honestly the only time I ever use Hawk Dive on a raid (assuming the raid leader has not already told me to never use the stupid bird again) goes like this: Me: hummmm getting thristy need a coke..... Hawk Dive Stream of Arrows Random afk ......30 secs later...... Me: ummmm nice and refreshing.... oh look my reuse timers are up
Wait Wait! I get it!!! They don't melt in your hand because of the candy shell!!! It all makes perfect sense now. Maybe this was the wrong thread for that, though.
AE class? Is there even such a thing? Some classes have AE abilities and some don't. Rangers are one of the classes who do have AE abilities, and if you are not using them (they are potentially our biggest hitters DPS wise), you are losing DPS. No we are not an AE class, but we do parse much higher on AE encounters.
I can't believe ya'll don't flip the bird in Raids. It lowers agro for your whole group. I'm always in the DPS group and some of those mages need all the help they can get...
Yes, I often use the bird in raids. Right before Stream of Arrows. Sometimes I just don't want to wait the three seconds for evac to go off.:smileytongue: Seriously though. I use the bird all the time when duoing with a healer to help hold aggro. But in a raid, it can have disasterous results. Now, if the hate was transferred to the tank in stead of me when the bird dies, that would be useful.
The problem is it takes all that hate from the whole group and then dies when the mob looks at it and then I get all that hate plus what I've built up. Now I don't mind dieing but I don't like being the reason the raid wipes. It takes one time to turn a mob with a frontal AE and there goes half the healers and the raid leader is yelling at me and giving me a verbal rendition of "the bird"
OK, I've seen several of you post this sort of thing. But call me dubious. I have NEVER drawn agro from using the bird. Not Once. EVER. Now I pretty much only raid. And I suppose it's likely that my guild's tank(s) are better than the typical raid tank in holding agro. But I would still think that I would have seen some evidence over the past months and months of raiding that the bird transfers such huge amounts of agro that it would disrupt raids. Not to mention that if you have some raid leader yelling at you about using the bird, I would suggest you politely tell him to pull his head out of his rear and either have someone who knows how to taunt tank for the raid or get a clue and put together some properly designed raid groups. But that strays from the point. What sort of evidence do you guys have that the bird transfers all siphoned agro to the ranger when it dies?
I also wonder where that came from. I use the bird, albeit only occaisionally, and I have never drawn aggro after it. The only time I draw aggro is if I get excited and start plinking arrows before tank has control of mob or if we are wiping, and it is my turn! Just wondering where that came from, I mean you cannot really see the aggro numbers on a parse? Can you? Message Edited by USAFJeeper on 07-17-2006 12:27 PM
Nope I don't see aggro numbers on a parse. What I see is my bird die and the mob turn and run directly to me stomp the ranger (that's using ignorant bliss) and then run straight back to the tank. What the parse shows are some really nice big numbers from the casters in my group and not much from me cause a.) I haven't used sniper/veiled/rain yet or b.) we just finished off one mob in the encounter and i started the next mob with the bird. So you tell me... maybe its pure luck that I cast the bird and half way through its duration it dies and the mob just figures a ranger would taste good right then. Now this does not happen every time I use the bird. And if it just killed me I could care less I have back up gear and repair kits. But how do you justify using a spell with very little usefulness when it has the potential to turn the mob and expose the whole raid to a frontal AE.
Yes, when the bird gets wiped, YOU get the aggro the bird had, just like any pet or dumbfire dying. If your aggro + the birds aggro > MT's aggro then you are going to get a raid mob running for you, possibly wiping your raid. This is why they are generally not allowed at raids. Imagine 30% of the caster's DPS going all-out in your group going to the bird. Now imagine 20s into it, the bird dies, and you get all that hate in an instant. Splat. Also, with the proper raid setup (dirge in MT, coercer, troubie in caster group) there is no need for additional hate management and the bird is mostly useless. (With a good raid, even warlocks can go full out and not get aggro) The big problem with the hate it uses is it siphons to the bird itself. If the hate dissapeared or transferred to the tank(s), then it would be useful because it wouldn't transfer it to the ranger if it dies. (Although, as I said, I think this is a mostly useless spell in a good raid) Most likely if you aren't having problems, it's one of these cases: 1) the bird hasn't died in AOE, 2) the MT has a lot of hate due to proper setup and overcomes your gain, 3) your dps isn't doing a lot of DPS and thus is irrelevant. Note: The better your raid is set up for hate, the more useless the bird is - yet the safer it is. So it gets more irrelevant as the skill goes up - not exactly a good thing for rangers. I'm not sure whether the bird's aggro transfers to you if it expires instead of dying. Maybe somebody has tested it both ways and could tell us. I sometimes use it purely as a cheap DOT but really it's not a good idea. Any wipe because of your bird dying and turning the mob to you is far too costly relative to the small gain of it. I have wiped the raid once doing it before I understood the hate mechanics. (That wasn't a very good raid though - heh.)
So... noone can definitively say that it does that. POOKIE RIDES AGAIN! Again I dont use it often, rarely against area effect mobs. Main time I use it is when I need an afk so I release Pookie then hit SoA for a quick AFK. Shhh, dont tell anyone.
LOL thats excatly what I said I use it for about half down back on page 2 of this thread. :smileytongue:
The above is the only post in this entire thread that appears to show an understanding of the way classes and skills are designed. Individually looking at any aspect of one particular skill (recast timer in this case), you will find another skill that is superior. This means absolutely nothing. A better idea might be to look at the case of whether the 3 Ancient Teachings for a Ranger are comparable to those of other classes. Comparing it to a single level 50/70 spell is silly at best. Message Edited by Sokolov on 07-18-2006 12:04 PM
Compare snipers to decap, dont compare rain to decap. All I repeat ALL our abilities are underpowered cept focus aim. We lack in single target and ae dps in all aspects of the game. Look up the gap post to see for yourself. I dont want more abilities, more buttons to mash.. Just whats there on par with other classes, not asking anything more, not demanding anything less.
