Hypothetical question(s)!

[p] Yeah.. your right kind of... But the art team would have to put in some effort for that. I don't know if they'd want to waste the time on such a thing. (ok, on to the less negative)[/p][p]I think Woodworkers and Carpenters are rather salvegable. But, pessimistic view here. It's the easy way out. Class consolidating is a bold move. Surely would piss some people off. I think they would have to get some compensation if they had both classes.[/p][p]slippery slope though.[/p]

[p]Another thought... combining these would also be kind of like saying "We don't need berzerkers and guardians, so we're just combining them into one class and giving them access to everything they each had." or "we don't need coercers and wizards, so they are just being combined."[/p][p]Not to mention.. but it's pretty darn hard to get that fabled/legendary gear without being in a hard-core guild, and even then it's pretty hard to get a full set, especially as soon as you can use the player-crafted stuff (IR: ever #2 level). And, no matter what merging of classes, it's not going to cause there to be any more demand for those tradeskillers services since the raid-gear will always be supperior, it will simply make more tradeskillers with those abilities.[/p]

[p]Coercers and Illusionists, Wizards and Warlocks[/p][p] [/p][p]Sorry, couldnt help it. Good point though. hehe [/p]

Bad bad bad bad precedent. Even as a hypothetical question it's a bad precedent. Can't come up with a viable way to improve crafting in a particular area? remove it, merge it with another one which has become easier to deal with. First it's these 4, then.. well.. who needs 9 classes of tradeskillers anyway, jsut have one Artisan lump. Too difficult to balance tradeskilling in with the rest of the game and make it a viably enjoyable pursuit with rewards for the time and effort spent.. well.. jsut get rid of the hole thing. The dev team (or at least the tradeskill dev who is no longer with us) has done a lot to contribute to the problems of one of the 4 hypothetical candidates for merge: Prior to LU#24, it was said that each class was going to get some sort of expendable item to aid in their monetary viability. Carpenters got repair kits as part of that. Weaponsmiths... well, they got their expendable items (thrown ammo) removed and given to another class. In return they got 2 of the 4 shield types. When Transmuting was added it was a development decision which shot the biggest whole in weaponsmithing. The ONE class with the hardest viability issues in product and NO expendable items is the only class which has to directly compete with a built-in grind mechanic. Anyone who wants to skill up a transmuter has to make thousands of transmuter adornments. Those are all weapon adornments. Since each of the original crafting classes of adventure products makes adornments for their types of products, that means weaponsmith adornments are in direct competition with transumter grind dumps. While adornments might help other classes it So now... hypothetically, since the dev team frelled up the one chance to have given weaponsmiths now they're wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water. Most of the tradeskillers who have put forth the concept of merging those two have been disgruntled weaponsmiths who haven't seen any vitality in their craft for a long long time. That's the truly distubing one in the the hypotheticals, to me. I guess the dev team is now seeing how pointless the class was made, too. Just a note, I do have a level 29-ish armorer (-ish 'cause I don't really play her and only worked her armoring up lately to equip a fae alt a bit). A merger of armorer/weaponsmith wouldn't impact me directly, but would in the ripples of precedent. The devs actually working to improve weaponsmithing wouldn't impact me directly either, but would in the ripples of precedent.

Yep. That's how it feels. Edit: I should say that while I'm against the hypothetical WW/Carp merge, I do really appreciate the dialogue on hypothetical changes!

I've never found my Carpenter to have a "lack" of recipes -- but then, I don't "grind", either. The market for furniture has pretty much bottomed out since LU24, but that's unrelated to this issue and, if anything, would be made worse by combining them with Woodworker. The blacksmith idea has merit, admittedly. I very much like the current symmetry, though. Perhaps a third Outfitter class could be developed beyond Tailor and Blacksmith? Bottom line, though, I'd be worried that this solution would be seen as an easy way to alleviate "quantity of recipes" issues without actually adding more recipes. =) For example (I think this has been mentioned), what if we could improve the market for Weaponsmith-crafted weapons without having to go to Fabled recipes? What if crafted weapons could be customized to a level that Fabled weapons could not, so that it might actually be advantageous, or at least arguably so, to go with a crafted weapon? Powers &8^]

[p]I agree, it would make a lot of sense, but there are a large number of people with both Armorer and Weaponsmith (like myself) or with Carpenter and Woodworker. These classes are the ones that need more recipes, hence the possibility of combining them, but that means those with both have put in the hard work and grinding twice, and stand to lose half of it, and I can't think of any way it could be made up to them (allowing one of their classes to respec to another class at the same level might seem fair, but it would not be right - at least it would not feel right to me). [/p][p]Perhaps if they were altered rather than merged... I know most of my recent Armorer orders have been for adornments, and not armor (sadly weaponsmith adornments are a joke, with the ones made by transmuters being of a comparable power level but having more diverse effects - such as power drain - and craftable by any transmuter). Rather than merging the two, consider some way to give more adornments to the weaponsmith (such as damage shields - which are sort of weapons - for other slots, and better weapon adornments).[/p][p]Even that seems like not much of a change though, tbh[/p]

perhaps if this were proposed BEFORE the jokes called tinkering and transmuting were entered in game, maybe you could have replaced the 2 missing tradeskills with tinkerer and transmuter. say merge armorer/weaponsmith, and call it blacksmith, and replace the gap created with transmuter. join carpenter with woodworker and fill the gap with tinkerer. but the way these 2 "sub-professions" was introduced has screwed that chance all up. either you people are really cruel and forsaw the incredible price gouging that would take place and did it anyway, or you are blind as to how your average mmorpg gamer thinks when something is in demand like treasured items and loam. i for one would rather see you leave the classes alone and fix the cluster **** that is tinkering and transmuting. sure people have been able to advance in those skills, but they are the ones that can afford to do so. they have screwed up the games economy and i for one would like to see the system overhauled. perhaps just wait until EQ3 if there ever is one. but for now, just fix whats messed up, dont change whats not.

[p] I just wanted to quote this and say a couple things. First, I - as others I'm sure appreciate the communication here. I may make some negative comments on the issue. But be assured I think your doing well in that and appreciate it.[/p][p]Second, even though it's hypothetical it's rather a nightmarish hypothetical sitution and brings back bad memories of another game. I would rather see this be discussed as a hypothetical situation rather than a patch note. I hope SOE puts more into crafting than wittle it down for easy maintenance.[/p][p] Thanks Ilucide.[/p]

[p]Great idea, IMO, and I'd like to add that many aventure classes should be combined as well:[/p][p]Bruiser/Monk[/p][p]Enchanter/Illusionist[/p][p]Fury/Warden[/p][p]Inquisitor/Templar[/p][p]Defiler/Mystic[/p][p]Wizard/Warlock[/p][p]Dirge/Troubador[/p][p]Swashbuckler/Brigand[/p][p]Most of these classes are either boring or underpowered, IMO, and such merges would largely solve both problems, since the affected classes would have more abilities to chose from. Additionally, it's a lot easier to balance 16 classes, than 24 classes, would require less dev time for itemization, etc. Also, when a Master spell drops for a group, the chance of it being something that someone could USE would increase by 50%.[/p][p]Just my opinion....but let's face it...in the long run, the game would be much easier to modify and maintain.[/p][p] [/p]

[p]I was a 250(252) Blacksmith with Trophy in Everquest and remember the time before banded armor trivialized all the way up to 189. I miss making weapons, and would greatly enjoy seeing a merger between the two professions.[/p][p] [/p]

What's funny is I was going to put this in with my suggestions on another thread in this forum, but didn't for two reasons. I couldn't figure out how to get the newly available recipes into the newly merged profession's hands. And I didn't want it to seem like I was looking for something for nothing while having a 67 Weaponsmith and a 60 Carpenter and the only professions that collectively my g/f and I do not have is Armorer and Woodworker.

Crack Junkie wrote:

Holy hyperbole Batman! Why did you stop there and not just take it all the way down to 12 classes? Or heck, why not 4 archtypes?

[p]I was the 4th Weaponsmith gamewide to level 50, and the 1st level gamewide to level 60.[/p][p] After that, it no longer mattered, because the craft has long been dead and buried.[/p][p] I've long advocated the question you posted:[/p][p]"What would armorers and weaponsmiths think about combining the two classes into Blacksmith?"[/p][p] The answer is that doing so is in the best interest of this game.[/p][p] I say this despite having both a 70 weaponsmith and a 70 armorer - again -[/p][p] DOING WHAT YOU'VE SUGGESTED IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THIS GAME.[/p][p] Thank you for having the cajones to suggest this - you are the first person brave enough to even say this publicly.[/p][p] Thank you[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]

It's not Hyperbole and many suggested it even after LU13. Until the subclass AP, most of those classes had no real individuality and were at best hair split. Sub-class AP has shown however, how they intend to differentiate those classes- that also took from launch to now. What we have in crafting is a class system built for an entirely different crafting than we ended up with ever since we got the cross class books. While I personally don't think his proposal fixes anything but leveling I do think it's a very very good move(if belated) to review all the classes and adjust accordingly. The classes as is have no real room for growth nor real definition, something has to be done and this is a very solid start.

Excellent idea!

[p]I'm split on this...[/p][p]On one hand, I think had this been done at the start of the game those who are resisting wouldn't have thought twice about it. But this isn't the start of the game anymore and the tradeskillers have seen major change after major change... I for one never saw the reason for segmenting WW/Carps and AS/WS trades other than than a seeming desire to have 3 trades in each 'archtype'. And for me, it would allow me to get rid of a character that I only keep around because he is a 67 crafter (I'd level Jal as my armorsmith and just get rid of shay at that point as Jal is a 31 weaponsmith).[/p][p]But I agree with Rijacki on the other hand. It does set a bad precedent and seems to be more akin to sweepign the issues under the rug. There is more wrong with weaponsmiths and armorsmiths than simply combining them will fix. Everything the two classes make are durable goods in a game where durable goods do no wear out. If there was true item decay which in effect made armor and weapons consumable items, then they would stand a chance as they currently are, but there isn't and I don't expect to see it either.[/p][p]At this point, I think combine with more intense scrutiny of what is wrong would be the best course, but it is only by a hair that I feel this way.[/p]

>>>There is more wrong with weaponsmiths and armorsmiths than simply combining them will fix. Everything the two classes make are durable goods in a game where durable goods do no wear out.<<< They don't wear out, but you do outlevel them. People do need new armor and weapons at least once per tier. By essentially doubling the merchandise available to those that are currently weaponsmiths and armorsmiths, you make it more likely that they will have things that someone would want to buy. On the other hand, you are also doubling their competition.

The more I think about this, the more it seems to me to be a lazy solution to a bigger problem. It seems to me that the professions in question are those with the least amount of recipes. Why does this have to be the case? For woodworker and weaponsmith it seems to me to be a very easy fix. All they need to do is give us a better variety of things to make, even it that simply means have alternate procs. For instance (using woorker stuff as that's what I am) Current Bow types - Long bow - Short bow Everyone sells imbued weapons, so that is realistically 4 bows we can make (2 rare, 2 common). Why can't we have a better selection? For instance - Long bow (choice of: heat proc, cold proc, stun proc etc...) This can apply to all crafted weapons and to me, seems like it would be very easy to do. I honestly can't imagine making a new recipe for crafting is very difficult. And if you really want to be lazy, they can all share the same graphic. Weaponsmiths and woodworkers no longer have so few items to make. The same system could work for armor, though I am aware that it may be more complicated due to armor appearance. Carpenter is the only one this system doesn't help, as I imagine much more work is involved creating a new house item than adding a new recipe for a weapon.

[p]As someone with both a woodworker and a carpenter, my main concern would be that one of my crafters would essentialy become useless with such a merger. If this was implimented AND I had the option of resetting one of them to zero craftign skill so he could choose a new profession, then I would be happy with such a change. There are also the economic considerations of merging two classes that each only have a couple items that have any player demand and already saturated market (totems and shields for woodworkers and boxes and sales displays for carpenters).[/p][p]I would rather see these classes (carp and ww) looked at and see if there are other ways to expand what they can make to make them more interesting. If its a matter of leveling fairness, then perhaps some fluff items could be created for the classes in question. This may also be a good time to bring back the idea of imbued/magical furniture (I think the original idea behind this was a way to increase vitality recovery rate with special furniture).[/p][p] Wikfizbik[/p]