Hypothetical question(s)!

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Ilucide, Feb 15, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Ilucide Guest

    I'm going to preface this heavily: the two questions below are purely hypothetical. I can't state this enough times: This is just me, one developer who plays the game, asking a question of his fellow players. Also, I'll give the reasons why I'm inclined to ask. Please try to forgive me for the candid nature of this!
    • What would armorers and weaponsmiths think about combining the two classes into Blacksmith?
    • What would carpenters and woodworkers think about combining the two classes into Builder (or some less ridiculous name)?

    Smithing:
    From the onset (this was some 3+ years ago now), I was curious how a weaponsmith class would function properly on its own. There are only one to two slots (depending on whether the client needs dual wield or 1/2h weapons) which they can fill, and really, only once every ten levels or so. This is vastly different than, say, a jeweler (lots of accessory slots), tailor (lots of body locations), armorer (same as tailor), or any of the other classes, really.

    In addition to the lack of slots to create items for, weaponsmiths also face the challenge of needing to compete on a level which the current system just doesn't really allow for. For characters who really need weapons (read: fighters, scouts & some priests), these items are such a critical upgrade path that mastercrafted gear is frequently overlooked in favor of moving directly to better legendary or fabled gear. To some extent, this might be able to be corrected with appropriate dropped recipes and rare components (this is a different discussion however), but it wouldn't be a complete or even guaranteed solution.

    Because both of these problems are such a major stumbling block to the weaponsmith profession as a whole, I'm curious what people would think about combining the two.

    Woodworking: (or carpenting - which really isn't a word, but oh well)
    One of the major problems with both professions has been trying to find enough things that both can build without stepping on each others' toes. Both have had a lack of recipes, and it's been one of the things I've been thinking about while fixing a lot of the little issues with furniture tags and the like. Carpenters get a lot of one-time business from people outfitting houses, and woodworkers will get a boost from the increased usefulness (and quantity) of arrow combines, but even still, both professions I feel have a very tough time standing on their own.

    Combining the two makes a lot of sense from my perspective, because the two professions really feel more like a whole that was split in two to conform to a 9 subclass number rather than two professions designed properly from the ground up.

    In Closing:
    Combining any profession might mean some feeling of a loss of identity, especially for folks who have gone out of their way to set themselves up as the premiere crafter of their field. I'm acutely aware of that, and that's one of the biggest reasons I tread so carefully here.

    I'm not dealing with any of the specifics of 'how' here, because to do so before I gauge community reaction would not only be a mistake, but would also be a disservice to you as a community. That time could be spent working on other things rather than working out the specifics of a hypothetical situation.

    Please, please, please remember that these really are just questions. I'm interested in hearing about what you have to say on the matter, and whether you would find it a positive change or not , that you'd like me talk to more folks on the EQ2 dev team about.

    Edited because the formatting was really messy!
  2. ARCHIVED-chrystolred Guest

    Well from a non crafting player and one who constantly looks for crafters this would be a lot more easier. However I would think that combining them would cause more players to want to be those artisans because they will be making literally double the money. Would be kinda hard to do that and not have everyone want to be that artisan. But I don't craft so just my assumption, I would like to see it though just because its more conveiant for me.
  3. ARCHIVED-Anski Guest

    I think it would help. I've always had the laugh on some of my friends who chose one of those TS classes that gets something awesome like three recipes per level, when I as a sage had so many that I never actually caught up to my current level. Combining those classes would not only help out with that aspect, but also make a lot of sense (especially the blacksmith idea)
  4. ARCHIVED-Looker1010 Guest

    [p]Fine hypotheticals, as far as they go. In fact I like the idea a lot. I have a carpenter AND a woodworker. I also have an armorer AND a weaponsmith. I don't need two of the hypothetical new skills. So Illucide, what are you hypothetically offering to us who already have both?[/p][p]Shame on me. I forgot the most important thing.... THANK YOU. No one has been interested in the plight of the crafter for way too long. You are a breath of fresh air. How wonderful that someone is actually thinking about the situation of crafters and what they need.[/p]
  5. ARCHIVED-interstellarmatter Guest

    Yes
    I'm sorry, let me rephrase that, Yes.
    I've been wanting to see an Armorer combined with Weaponsmith for a long time. Many armorers and weaponsmiths have long left their profession due to lack of business. Combining them might bring some life back to it.
  6. ARCHIVED-Tstorm Guest

    Personally, I would find such a merge between armorers/weaponsmiths and carpenters/woodworkers to be attractive. I have a 70 provisioner, 70 alchemist, and a 350/350 tinkerer so I have little fear of crafting. I have considered taking on some of the other tradeskills on alts, but when I look at them, it's as if they don't have enough utility for me to warrant all the work it takes to level one. Doing some combining would raise the attractiveness to where someone like myself would be more interested in taking it on. This is just my perception at first glance though. As stated, combining tradeskills can be a big deal to some people as they lose identity, etc. I also wonder if it would unbalance the various tradeskills a bit or otherwise wreck havoc on the economy. Very interesting idea!
  7. ARCHIVED-Elorah Guest

    I would agree on the joining of weaponsmith and Armorer as a Blacksmith. That not only makes sense as a crafter, but also in Roleplay. I have 9 crafters (one of each. My lowest 2 are in fact the weaponsmith and the armorer. Between the lack of recipies and lack of ore that is found, they are the hardest to level. My Carpenter I LOVE who was my first one to 70, where as the woodworker is at 69 and I worked hard to get her there. I would be sad if they merged the 2. I know that a lot of people complain about the 4 professions, but the way that I see it, the crafters hit the hardest are the weaponsmith and armorer. Carpenters sell their wares easily enough (well at least on my server), and woodworkers always have ammo to grind that always seem to sell (also on my server). I would definitely vote for the blacksmith, but leave the wood crafters separate. I would really hate to think of anyone that worked hard to get theior craft maxxed out feel that it was in vain for any craft. So I have to ask what do those crafters get for having all of them maxxed before merging?
  8. ARCHIVED-mahabreta Guest

    [p]I have a 70 AS/Carp, am in the 60's on WS and 40's with WW.[/p][p]My initial reaction to this is positive. It makes sense and would expand the market available to weaponsmiths, carpenters, and woodwoorkers - particularly the mid-level ones!![/p][p]I would imagine that there are two types of people who have carved out a niche in a particular profession as the premiere crafter type:[/p][p]1. Those who do so for RP reasons - this really shouldn't affect them except in a positive manner as it will be a bit easier for them to level up. They're simply specialists - there is no reason for them to advertise or sell products other than, say, bows, if they don't wish to.[/p][p]2. Those who have invested most of their in-game crafting efforts on one crafting profession - again, this shouldn't affect them except positively. They will have more recipes, and they may (or may not) use the skills of the other profession, which might seem daunting at first. However, after leveling crafters in 8 of the 9 professions (I won't touch provo! Well... maybe... :) ) I can state with confidence that using the reaction arts is the same across all of the professions. The only thing that changes is the icons.[/p][p]So yes, I'd say goferit. It would mean more competition for me as an armorsmith, but I think it's fair. It's nice to know that there's a dev on the team that plays a crafter, sometimes we wonder![/p][p]And yeah, the Mastercrafted vs. Legendary/Fabled is a whole NUTHER can of worms. Best for another thread :)[/p][p] [/p]
  9. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    [p]I *love* the idea. As a weaponsmith, a lack of levelling recipe variety has hindered me a lot... and woodworkers are far worse off.[/p][p] [/p][p]I think this would certainly help keep crafters in the field. You're right in that it doesn't address all issues. Without gear that is able to compete (drops are a start for a fix!) our primary function is difficult to justify being 70 for, aside from having *picked* it already, and needing to finish some HQs that now suddenly any 70 crafter can do for you. =) If you combine weaponsmith with armorer and woodworker with carpenter, you would probably have less levelling tedium and more flexibility for recipes. You still don't have a consumable for the blacksmith version to use for staple income.[/p][p] [/p][p]As a, um, premier weaponsmith (well, ok, at LEAST t7 and finished my OWN wurmy and belt thank you), I'd welcome such a combining. I don't have any real reputation to live up to either (or endanger, for that matter), as the field is fairly open: enough weapsmiths on at any given time, and no real consumable to advertise for.[/p]
  10. ARCHIVED-valkyrja Guest

    As a woodworker, I'd hate for us to be combined with carpenters, for 2 reasons. 1) I don't want to make house items, and I'd be concerned that instead of coming up with interesting new thing for us to make, you'd take the easy route and just leave what we have, and we'd never see something new. 2) It's already difficult enough to make a profit on the wares I sell. If there were suddenly twice the amount of people making all of this stuff, the market would be over saturated.
  11. ARCHIVED-Deson Guest

    Meh, while attractive, I think you should completely review the classes. Simply merging those classes won't fully address the core issues. The best it does is defer them off. What good does it do weapon production to make a change like this and all combining carpentner does is about the same. Actually, for awhile I've been siting on how I see a TS class review so I'll just post that.



    Classes

    Issue: Crafts are bland and redundant tier to tier and little room for growth is seen in some classes.

    I see this as a multilayered problem with everything from the crafts themselves to the lack of meaningful content. The classes themselves for me are the biggest issue however so, that is what I wish to tackle first. Too many classes leads to ideas being spread too thin and a lack of venues to expand to because someone else already covers it. It also has the illogical but emotional issue of numbers balance that I've never seen a dev team truly escape; where one class in an archetype has something, the other class invariably complains if it doesn't have an equal/near-equal number.

    Solution: Class revamps/combines.

    There are 2 ways I see to really handle this; one is a minor shifting that tries to preserve how things are. The other, far more drastic follows behind the changes that gave woodworkers shurikens- logical placement that would in many cases have people in classes slightly off from where they started and have even a few recipe lines split.

    Slight Change

    Weapon smiths and Armor smiths become one class- metal smiths (blacksmiths). This would preserve both classes and give them more recipes per level (on par with jewelers/alchemists in many cases)

    Woodworkers and Carpenters become Craftsmen. A rite of passage for all woodworkers is getting asked to make furniture and then explaining why you don't but carpenters do to the would have been customer. This change again preserves the recipes and expands the number that both classes have

    Scholars get the most change from me. Alchemists go away and give their potions to sages and combat arts to jewelers. This gives Sages something other than the same tedious spells to make and consolidates all melee arts into a single class. It does expand the recipes of two already rich classes but, numbers isn't the issue, difference and meaningful variety is.

    Flaws/unresolved issues: Tailors and provisioners are unaccounted for because placing them anywhere ruins the logic or makes a super class. Tailors could be split by giving their weapons to weapon smiths, armor to armor smiths and clothing to craftsmen but, they really just do well on their own; it fits. Provisioners just don't go anywhere under a change this minor and would need some bulking up to compete with the overall robustness of the other classes. While not that big a deal, 50 + levels of making the same old food and drink (much of it redundant) gets old fast and some variety has to be added.

    Cost/Benefits: Obvious costs are people losing their class however, since no recipes have been lost, there shouldn't be too much issue. Benefits are that with a leaner class list, changes /additions can be made that are based more on their meaning than just putting up numbers. With fewer proprietary areas to worry about, more crossover items can be introduced such as defender swords and potions that act as spells (even just plain spell scrolls) though admittedly, the devs have shown no real interest in that area.

    Major Retooling

    I say right now, this is likely going to piss some people off but....

    Remove all weapons from woodworkers and tailors and give them to weapon smiths- this includes ammo. Remove all armor/shields from the same and give them to armor smiths. Rename both from smiths to specialists (even rename armor specialist, protection specialist).

    Take totems, poisons and potions and give them to sages. Take fighter CA's and cloaks, give them to jewelers. Rename them apothecaries and thaumaturgies.

    Take fluff... well fluff anything and give it to carpenters, do the same with food and containers. Rename the class provisioner (heh) or supply master.

    Cost/Benefits: Losing your class sucks, plain and simple. All the work and the long term attachment with a title plus, getting to the point where you know everything you can do and all the little things that get you there mean a lot. Such moves should never be done without a clear statement of vision and all the areas things will get better on a major scale. More importantly than anything, it must be clarified why such changes could not have been made under what came before. With over 2 years now in essentially the same classes with minor changes, there will be many who loathe you for any change. The only mitigation to this is that, especially since LU24, many classes aren't the same as they were and many people want change anyway. Here are the bene's:

    • With fewer classes governing slender specialist market areas, it allows a less restrained development/addition of special items and even skills. It also allows those classes more wiggle room within their profession and allows the freer development of ways to specialize a character that avoids being the same as everyone else- like achievements. It sounds silly but it really is a case of less options= more options.
    • Fewer classes allows for less worry about arbitrary issues like recipe balance.
    • Fewer classes also allows for the slimming of recipe lists into smaller, more meaningful items and less of things like 4 food/drink items that do the exact same thing.
    • Consolidation of classes into a logical order all at once means no more waking up and finding you don't make ammo any more...or shields... or fist wraps... or anything else the excuse can be used for. It also means the customer has a lower learning curve to adjust to and is less likely to become frustrated and just ignore crafted goods.
    • It allows a freer flow of content in the world since there are fewer classes to consider and all but eliminates the need for contrivance that obviously defies logic.

    This is the plan I like most. No hair splitting along thinly conceived lines; clear, concise and logical for the most part.
  12. ARCHIVED-Truls Guest

    It's an interesting idea and one that has some merit. I will not comment on the armorer/weaponsmith change since that one would not affect me. However, would some credit be given to crafters who already have both? For example, I would not object to the merging of my woodworker and carpenter if I could choose to exchange one of the professions for something else ... i.e. my woodworker could have a one time chance to change from a lvl 70 woodworker to a lvl 70 sage. Obviously I could just reroll one of them but, call me lazy, I just don't want to have to grind another crafter to 70 atm when I had already done so.
    Also, I actually wouldn't mind if woodworkers and carpenters were kept separate. When I made both I knew what I was getting into and yet I still wanted to be both of them. Part of the reason I never chose armorer or weaponsmith was because I knew what I would be getting into with those professions as well ... and the idea wasn't appealing to me lol.
  13. ARCHIVED-Calthine Guest

    I'm against it, but it's for purely selfish reasons. I'm a Woodworker. If I wanted to be a Carpenter, I would have picked Carpenter. I don't want it. I'm in that category of people who worked hard to set my in-game identity as a Woodworker, and merging my class would have exactly the effect Ilucide stated. Would it be game-breaking for me? Probably not. But having suffered so many traumas in Tradeskilling since launch, this would hurt and sadden me.

    We all know the grind doesn't bother me, so we'll skip over that.

    I also don't think Woodworkers have the marketability issue that Weaponsmiths do. (I have a Weaponsmith, too.) The marketability of Mastercrafted Weaponsmith goods peters out much, much faster than the marketability of Mastercrafted Woodworker goods. My Weaponsmith has a hard time marketing anything after T4 or so, while my Woodworker still has viable (if limited) product all the way to the top.
  14. ARCHIVED-Abilis Guest

    [p]Personally, I think it would have been a terrific idea, had it been implemented on launch. Or even with the crafting revamp which removed all the sub-combines. At this point, I think it's a bit too late.[/p][p]Now, what would be neat, and assist those crafts in getting a bit more re-use, would be to make items take permanent damage whenever they are repaired. This would also makes death's have a bit more of an impact on players, and help take money out of the economy since more would be changing hands, going to brokers and for fuel. That I can only view as a good thing where there is an unlimited (theoretically) income into the system, and very little out of it. It would help to lower the prices on things.[/p][p]How much permanent damage per repair? That would have to be played with, and fabled/legendary items might have to be exempt and/or have a much lesser "decay" or else no one would use them when they really need to be used, but just for show around town (though, again, it would promote more strategic play instead of zerging, and have even 'end game' guilds re-raiding to gain replacement gear for heavily damaged items).[/p][p]I don't have any hard stats, but I would suggest 5% per repair for common/mastercraft/treasured items and 1% for fabled/Legendary. or even 10% for common, 5% for MC/Treasured and 1% for fabeled/legendary.[/p][p]But that's just my reccomendation.[/p]
  15. ARCHIVED-Tuppen Guest

    [p]I think that it would be a good move in both cases. I have a 70 tailor and a 70 carpenter so am a bit biased.[/p][p] I can see where folks who have both woodworker and carpenter OR both armorer and weaponsmith in their stable of tradeskillers would feel like they had been cheated somehow. I Know I would be pretty upset if tailor were combined with carpenter and suddenly I had two of them. I would feel like a lot of my time had been wasted. [/p][p]If there could be some way to compensate thefolks who would end up with either TWO woodcrafters or TWO blacksmiths, I think it would be a change well recieved. [/p]
  16. ARCHIVED-Almeric_CoS Guest

    [p]I have a T7 Carpenter and I don't think such a merger is neccesary. We have a SERIOUS lack of recipes in the higher levels from which to grind off of. HOWEVER, this could be nicely remedied by taking most or all of the non-crafted recipes in the world and turning them into recipes.[/p][p]Maybe there should be a few exeptions - like the best of the best of faction rewards that people grind like madness for - but most of it should go to us. Look around the world zones for objects that are out there. Somewhere there is (was?) a very long wishlist thread with screenshots of cool furnishings from around the world. Let us craft new wall and flooring options. Hell, give us the potted flower selection from Erollisi Day! I'd like to make a Pristine of each of those for exp ;)[/p][p]So no, I don't think we should be merged with Woodworkers, I just think that we should be given as many recipes as possible.[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
  17. ARCHIVED-Nuhus Guest

    I'd say.... A merger between weapon smith and armorer would be valid. Carpenters and Woodworkers? No
  18. ARCHIVED-Lydiaele Guest

    [p]This IS the EQ2 tradeskills forum, isn't it? Did I wander off to another dimension again? Thexians... damn them... :|[/p][p]Seriously, I think this would be wonderful. There are so many great weapons out in the world available from drops and quests that no one really wants high level Mastercrafted. Someting like half the HQ's are for weapons, and then there's the prismatics and claymore and now the "Blades of Legend" or whatever. I have to think it would be difficult or impossible to make weaponsmiths viable given this situation.[/p][p]As for doubling money, you have to double demand to double sales, you're just increasing the number of suppliers, which is actually good economically for buyers. I don't make that much of anything any more. I had a flurry of T6 and 7 sales when EoF launched but my business has dropped down to nothing.[/p]
  19. ARCHIVED-Karlen Guest

    I only started crafting around Christmas and am now 55 Woodworker. I have not tried any of the other trades but do know people that have. With respect to armorer and weaponsmith, I think that it might be a good combination. Both of them seem to have the problem of a lack of repeat customers. They will sell one-off weapons and occasionally a full suit of armor, but there are many alternatives to crafted weapons and armor. Carpenters also have the problem of a lack of customers I believe. They don't make anything that people need a lot of other than one-off purchases for houses. I suppose if you know some plat farmers that want to insta-decorate a mansion you could do well. In the case of woodworkers, I have found that we don't get many recipes, but between rare ones and imbuing, new recipes are usually good for close to half a level. Wand levels are particularly good that way, although rare wand levels can be expensive. However, the difference here is that I can make totems and arrows to finish off each level and sell as many as I can make at 200-500% profit. If they are white, I will usually get 1.5%-2% xp per combine (with vitality) so it doesn't take too long to grind out a level. I just dump them right into my weapons rack (arrows) or jewelry box (totems) as I make them. Although weapons and bucklers dont sell as quickly, I have never had to do writs or sell to NPCs yet. I think woodwoorker plus carpenter would be a pretty powerful combination, and possibly unbalanced against the others. If you were to do this, I think it might be worth throwing some woodworker stuff like shields over to the weapon/armor guys or maybe even tailors. On the other hand, there would be a lot more competition with more people doing woodworker/carpenter so easy profits would be harder to come by.
  20. ARCHIVED-KerowynnKaotic Guest

    [p]*ponders* ... [/p][p]eh .. I'm not too sure about it. [/p][p]I know (read or talked to) a few Weaponsmiths wish they could be combined and I know (read or talked to) a few Armorers that have also wished they were combined into one class. [/p][p]But, certainly not all and not even the majority, I don't think. [/p][p]My husband certainly wouldn't mind. Since he is working on both and by combining the Classes into 1 Class he can stop trying to "kill himself" by dividing his leveling between his Armorer & Weaponsmith. [/p][p]However, He has the Carpenter and I have the Woodworker .. so, that creates it's own dilema there.[/p][p]---[/p][p]So how many people have already either 1 of each or are in progress of one or the other? [/p][p]By combining them you will potentially double a single class on someone's account. (basically wasting their leveling progress on 1). [/p][p]This would lead to more trouble than it would be worth. [/p][p]Only option on that would be to allow the person to "flip" entire TS knowledge to another TS profession. [/p][p]Which could make the other professions a bit upset. [/p][p]---[/p][p]The individual classes themselves, barring Weaponsmiths which need some serious stat / desire-ability help, can be fixed by the addition of several "flavor" choices. [/p][p]I keep asking why don't you guys simply give the Armorers a set of "Casual Plate" like the Tailors have. A Chest Slot item that gave the illusion of full plate/chain. No Stat. Purely decretive. 8 per tier. (male / female + chain / plate). Slap some really cool looking colors on it .. allow level 1s to wear it. [/p][p]You could always Re-do the entire Hex Dolls lines. And, give each class (Tailor / Armorer / Weaponsmith / Woodworker ) their own flavors for stat combos. Instead of +12 Wis. Get +6 wis / 6 Sta. Or +4 wis / +4 Int / + Sta. Same item - different options. ... Options are good. [/p][p]Woodworkers could use the addition of "flavor" bows. Rangers have been wanting Arrows that do different kinds of damang (fire / cold / magic / etc). Each of those are potential Recipes. [/p][p]Heck, even the Weaponsmiths themselves could benefit from different types of weapons. Give them different recipes with choices of Fire / Cold / Magic / Etc. Weapons that not only have a (type) proc but also a larger (type) resist bonus. Or, even some Racial Damage Modifiers. Doesn't have to be anything really big. Anything extra helps. :)[/p][p]And, Carpenters are easy to "fix". LOL .. more furniture! There are lists and lists of suggestions for that "fix" running around [/p][p]*shrug* [/p]